Sensitive Issue

[KidGrind]

I am grossed out to the max.

[TwinKristi]

I've never had a kid do that, not my own, not daycare. Sure they grab themselves in the bathtub or during a diaper change as an infant but once you're talking about a 4-5yr old doing it in the open spread eagle on the couch... No. Not normal. And like someone pointed out, to rub yourself raw is quite a task and something that should be addressed. She could be causing herself damage down there and perhaps inviting an infection. Plus dirty little hands and private parts just aren't a good mix.
If she continues to do this to the point of injury I would give parents the ultimatum of long pants, leggings under shorts, leggings under her dresses, but no dresses and shorts for now. That doesn't prevent her from doing this in the potty but I agree you may need to supervise her in there and make sure she's dressed before coming out.

I wouldn't be happy if I found out my child was being exposed to that at daycare. Her parents need to understand what they allow at home (which is pretty off IMO) is NOT going to dictate what you allow at daycare.

Also- I had a friend who's 4yr old boy was doing this, and was uncircumcised and gave himself an infection. They allowed him to do it at home and didn't want to shame him... But he didn't do if at daycare/preschool most likely because he wasn't allowed to! These are typical cookoo new age parents... Bratty kids but SO smart and dressed in their designer Mini Boden, Tea, Gynboree, Gap and Janie & Jack clothes!

[starz0123]

To say child sexualised behaviour is not normal development is just wrong. What is right is understanding when those behaviours are out of the norm & are considered harmful to the child. A phone call to child protection will clarify that for you.

There are lots of good resources out there from childhood theorists and child psychologists on the subject & how to deal with it. Some previous posters had some good links, Louise Porter has a good one & reading theorists such as Erik Erikson will give you an understanding of human development.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.

I 1000000% agree with Nannyde.

[nannyde]

I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.

Nah.... get some Frozen themed footed jammies and put them on her. She isn't thirteen. She's four. She needs TIME every day where she is blocked and fugures out how to expend her energy with something else.

You will be discussing this with the other parents. The kids that witness the kid coming out of the bathroom naked, getting on the couch, spreading the legs and masturbating will have their parents told about it before they even pull out of your driveway.

I have a HUGE issue with this kid being told repeatedly to stop it and her escalating it to naked on the couch. Do you GET that?

We have COMPLETELY lost our way when it comes to discipline. We have abandoned our common sense.

A four year old child should not be spread legged naked on a couch masturbating herself. A four year old child who has been told over and over and over and over and over to STOP it.... NO! Is so driven to soothe and pleasure herself means there is something very seriously wrong.

Four year old children should not derive pleasure from masturbating. Four year old children who do... who insist... who are willing to be in trouble... who know the adult doesn't like it... have something going on in their life that is not normal. They do this high level public stimulation now and what do you think is next?

I will tell you. You will have a kid who does it constantly because it takes constantly to get the feeling they are chasing.

She needs to GO PLAY TOYS and stop stealing every opportunity to pleasure herself. She needs to pay attention to what those around her are doing instead of isolating herself into a game that only one plays. She should not need to experience this gratification at four. She has her whole life ahead of her.

It breaks my heart that we are stealing away every single aspect of these kids childhood because some educators take research and apply it to their philosophy and sell it in books. We don't need someone to tell us kids explore themselves. What kids don't do and shouldn't do is fixate on masturbating publicly when they are sitting in playrooms with dolls, blocks, cars, kitchen, shopping carts. That child should be pleasuring herself with those.

[dalman]

She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.

I agree with Nanny De. You are providing GROUP daycare. She is not the only child in your home. I would be livid if I found out that this was going on in front of my child and touted as being normal. I do not condone this behavior and I would not want it modeled in front of my child.

This mother's response is not one that works for me. What she wants to allow in her home is her business, so take your daughter and her business elsewhere. I would not put my daycare license, reputation, income, impressionable children on the line for this wacko mom. You are playing with fire and hopefully you don't get burned. I would call me licensor immediately and go from there. I would also hand the mom her term notice immediately.

[debbiedoeszip]

We agree that it is not to be allowed, but we will have to agree to disagree on the rest.

[tehck_1013]

I have kids that I've known to be "humpers" :: Basically taking advantage of any opportunity to rub or hump - leaning against furniture, resting at nap, etc. But it wasn't obvious to anyone else.

::

humpers.


Billy...... We don't touch the couch like that......

hahahaha.

[Heidi]

We agree that it is not to be allowed, but we will have to agree to disagree on the rest.

[Unregistered]

I do agree with the liability part. I'm guessing, though, that in fear of being too firm and possibly "damaging" this child's psyche, OP may be being to gentle, and not giving a clear message. Mom's message of "only in private" is ok; but at daycare, it needs to be stepped up to NO!

I am the OP. I was too gentle about it at first because I was worried about shaming the child, but I have since stepped it up to a definite no and she still persists. Its been a definite no for at least a week now.(I said no, don't do that all along, but I just wasn't as adamant about it until last week.)
Yesterday when my son saw her doing it and asked me about it was kind of the end of the line for me. I told mom she has to have tight fitting shorts under all of her dresses and it needs to be addressed. Mom feels it is "normal." I love the suggestion of saying "No that's not allowed at daycare," because it doesn't undermine mom but says it is not allowed here under any circumstances. Nannyde has a very good point about other parents being alarmed because I was very upset that it happened in front of my son and I'm the provider. I can only imagine how I would have felt if my son witnessed that while in someone else's care. This child does have sensory issues. That could be playing into this, but either way I truly feel if the adult in charge tells you to stop a behavior, at 4 y.o. you should have enough self control to stop.
I know that its considered normal for a child to explore this region of their body, but this is not a casual let me see what's there. I mean she completely spreads herself. Her parents recently divorced so maybe she is acting out because of that? Idk. Today she came in more appropriate clothing and she only tried it once and it was over the clothes. All I had to do was look at her and she stopped immediately. I'm hoping talking to mom worked. I hate to report it if nothing is going on, but for her sake I don't want to be wrong either. I don't believe she's being abused or I would call in a second, but I will definitely be documenting very carefully for my records and if it continues I will call. Better safe than sorry.

[KiddieCahoots]

I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.

Idk Bc. In all my years, the children that I witnessed masturbate themselves raw were the ones that had been abused.
Considering the devastating effects it can cause a child, I'd rather leave the diagnoses up to the professionals, and make the call, just like I swore I would as a mandated reporter when I signed my license.

[Blackcat31]

Idk Bc. In all my years, the children that I witnessed masturbate themselves raw were the ones that had been abused.
Considering the devastating effects it can cause a child, I'd rather leave the diagnoses up to the professionals, and make the call, just like I swore I would as a mandated reporter when I signed my license.

Oh don't get me wrong...I'm not saying OP shouldn't be concerned. I am just saying it doesn't automatically mean she is a victim of sexual abuse simply because she masturbates.

I have had one in care that did that and she was NOT a victim of anything like that. She was simply self-soothing.

OP knows her DCK's and knows if it warrants a call to CPS or not.

We don't know the bigger picture so "we" can't make that call....kwim?

I also know that being a mandated reporter means when we suspect abuse so therefore, OP has to be the one that suspects or doesn't suspect.

I did a TON of research about masturbation in early childhood and it isn't nearly as concerning as everyone is making it out to be. It CAN be, but that really is in only a small percentage of cases.

Hopefully, OP will research and gather info, document and come to her own conclusion. Only she knows the right move to make next.

[TwinKristi]

Does mom have a new BF or dad have a family member he's living with or perhaps a roommate?

[SilverSabre25]

This child does have sensory issues.

BINGO. I was suspecting sensory issues. That's what sparked my earlier suggestion of something like a chewy ring or silky fabric to redirect to her. She's stimming. Has she been evaluated for these sensory issues?

[MotherNature]

I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.

I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.