Sensitive Issue

[Hunni Bee]

You say mom tells her to go to her room to do it, so why does dcg think it's perfectly acceptable to do it on the couch, or to strip and do it wherever she is...? I'd assume the mom is lying and just not doing anything about it, and would wonder what kind of weird stuff the girl is being exposed to at home.

I'd consider terming if she could not/will not control herself.

^^ This. Its not so much that she's doing it, many kids (I notice it a BUNCH with girls) do it, to soothe themselves to sleep or just because its theirs and they like it.

But, honestly, with all the kids I've seen do it who had nothing going on, it was PRIVATE. (as private as a little kid can get) Subtly under the covers at nap, sometimes in the bathroom, etc. NOT removing clothing, coming out into the main room naked and openly touching in front of other people.

That's for me where it goes into not okay.

[debbiedoeszip]

Forgive me, but I am a little confused as to what you were trying to say here. The first sentence makes it seem as if you are appalled that nobody permits this behavior at daycare. :confused: But then your second sentence reaffirms that normal does not mean allowed. Unless you were just correcting your second to last post in which case what you said would make sense. Sorry. Anyways, I never said the behavior was not normal... just that I wouldn't allow it. I also wouldn't just term for no reason. I really would try to get her to stop. I'd give it time, but like I said, WOULD consider terming if she couldn't control herself. It would come down to the appropriateness and other children being exposed.

When I read your post, I got the idea that you were suggesting that anyone who wasn't shocked and appalled by the behaviour was also allowing it to happen. No one so far has suggested that they would allow it, even if they weren't grossed out by it. I'm very uncomfortable with the behaviour, but not grossed out (because I understand that it's normal, and that not all kids that age have the right level of social skill and/or impulse control to stop right away).

[nannyde]

Masturbation, amongst all age groups, is normal (all the way from babies to centenarians). It's not socially acceptable when done in public, but neither are many other behaviours that children exhibit that are also perfectly normal. I realize that many, if not most, will find it incredibly uncomfortable to see a child doing this (count me in), but that doesn't make it less normal a behaviour.

Now, that doesn't mean that normal is synonymous with socially acceptable. It's our job (50 or so hours per week) to teach these small children how to behave. They don't come to us already socialized. And I'm not going to treat the behaviour like it's some kind of sex crime (nor do I believe that it, in the absence of any other kind of sexual behaviour, is indicative of sexual abuse).

I don't like the idea of backwards pjs for a 4yo. The idea is to correct without shaming, and making a 4yo wear pjs instead of regular clothes (especially if there are any other kids their age) might cause shame. Overalls might be a better choice, though she'll need assistance with them when she needs to use the toilet. Other than that, help her find an acceptable activity that is as fun (or more fun) than playing with herself.

Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.

[debbiedoeszip]

I have good success with, "Stop. That is not for daycare." This doesn't interfere with the parents rules at home but it ends the behavior quickly. It's no different here from standing on a chair, running in the house, leaving the yard etc. You just don't do it here.

I can see how this would be both effective and non-shaming. Nice!

[Heidi]

It's not an infection b/c I sent her home/ to the dr. a couple weeks ago thinking it was a uti. She kept saying it burned when she peed and the dr said its definitely not an infection. Most likely she has irritated it b/c of touching so much. I understand it is "typical" to have a phase like this, but it is definitely not appropriate. This happened occasionally for about a year, but it only turned into an all the time thing a few weeks ago. I like the idea of saying, "not at daycare," but its so frustrating to have to redirect and wash her hands multiple times every day. We may have to come up with a behavior plan if this continues like one of you mentioned. Its definitely not ok for the other kids to be exposed to this behavior.

Since redirecting and hand washing isn't working, I'd do as MV says and make it really hard for her to even "go there".

She needs to be dressed in well-fitted jeans or some other fairly solid pants and a shirt. Not sure if she can do snaps or buttons yet, but if not you will have to help her when she comes out of the bathroom. That might actually help alert you, anyway.

Unless there is any kind of abuse going on, she probably will outgrow it. I WAS abused and never had the issue. My son, who was not, rubbed himself against everything for a while as a preschooler. We just redirected and he eventually outgrew it.

I really think that if opportunity is reduced via different clothes, she'll have find something else to do.

[Meyou]

I also do not think it is something we need to immediately call CPS over....

It's a self soothing mechanism for some children. The pleasure is no different than sucking their thumb or stroking the satin edge of a blanket or any other sensory seeking behavior.

I had a 4 yr old in care that would frequently masturbate during nap time.

She was not a victim of sexual abuse and although she came from a pretty dysfunctional family, it was nothing more than an attempt to self-soothe.

With a bit of re-direction, assistance and support from both myself and her parent, the child eventually learned it was not okay to do at daycare.

Apparently she continued to have this behavior though well after leaving my care but was perfectly content to limit it to her own bedroom at home.

Child is now 7 and mom tells me she has since stopped although she (mom) is not aware of when she stopped since she only did it in her own room.

I have one who is similar. He started at 4, more than a year after he potty learned and it escalated the summer he was 5. I read a thread on here about making it a "not for daycare" activity and went from there after redirection, talks about appropriate places and talks with mom and dad got me nowhere. He's 7 now and hasn't whipped in out in over 2 years here but he still enjoys his alone time at home frequently. He's borderline delayed, has huge anxiety and it was soothing related for him IMO.

[Heidi]

Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.

I do agree with the liability part. I'm guessing, though, that in fear of being too firm and possibly "damaging" this child's psyche, OP may be being to gentle, and not giving a clear message. Mom's message of "only in private" is ok; but at daycare, it needs to be stepped up to NO!

[Play Care]

^^ This. Its not so much that she's doing it, many kids (I notice it a BUNCH with girls) do it, to soothe themselves to sleep or just because its theirs and they like it.

But, honestly, with all the kids I've seen do it who had nothing going on, it was PRIVATE. (as private as a little kid can get) Subtly under the covers at nap, sometimes in the bathroom, etc. NOT removing clothing, coming out into the main room naked and openly touching in front of other people.

That's for me where it goes into not okay.

I have kids that I've known to be "humpers" :: Basically taking advantage of any opportunity to rub or hump - leaning against furniture, resting at nap, etc. But it wasn't obvious to anyone else. I've never had a child exposing themselves to others and rubbing themselves raw - The behavior the OP is describing seems a bit out of the norm to me. That doesn't mean I'd be calling CPS, but I'd sure as heck be documenting, talking to licensing, etc. I LOVE Meyou's suggestion - this child does need to "STOP! We don't do that at day care!"
The situation needs to be monitored very closely because a child who is openly showing genitals, rubbing them in front of others, etc. is a HUGE liability.

[KiddieCahoots]

The op is saying that this child is masturbating constantly to the point of needing medical attention because she's rubbed herself raw. This child is not masturbating in a discreet method, to coincide with being told to go to her room and do it there in privacy. She's spreading her naked legs apart and going to town in front of people, suggesting this is normal behavior for her to do in front of others.
Here are two of the more severe stories of the children that exhibited this exact behavior....One of the girls was put in front of the tv with *****graphic movies by her mother and lesbian lover, to teach her how it was done. The other 4yr old was brought over to daddy's friends houses where they were allowed to have their way.
Both masturbated more than usual, both masturbated themselves raw, both continued the "phase", longer than normal, and both were more casual about masturbating in public than the normal masturbating child.

We are mandated reporters.

[debbiedoeszip]

Saying no and putting in a block isn't any more like shaming than it is like celebrating. You can say the word shame and I can say the word frog.

Backwards jammies makes skin to skin contact impossible. Overalls can easily be gone thru on both waist sides and the front buckles.

Block her and get three kinds of DEAD SERIOUS that she is to STOP IT... don't do it again ONE TIME in my house. If she can't mind the adult she needs to be terminated. She can rock a daycare providers world. She's a danger to the business. She's a danger to your freedom.

Any four year old who has been told to stop it and continues to do it constantly and brazenly open is too risky to have under your roof. Tell the other parents about a kid who is naked masturbating in front of their kid and see how many say... well just tell her it's a private affair and to go to a private area.... and don't worry... It's normal.

Ummm that would be none.

I'm not going to make a child that age wear pjs all day when other kids her age are wearing regular clothes. Especially making them wear the pjs backwards. I'm not going to make the child feel self-conscious all day and ashamed by the behaviour that led to his/her needing to wear different clothes than the others. Period. Masturbation is not a harmful behaviour in and of itself. If you are really that concerned about a child's behaviour messing with your business, then by all means term.

And I'm not going to get all DEAD SERIOUS about something that isn't harmful or dangerous. I'm going to be extremely persistent in stopping the behaviour and I'll work super hard at keeping the child's hands otherwise occupied, but I'm not going to treat the child like they've committed a crime against humanity.

And why would I be discussing a daycare child with a non-parent? If another parent brings it up, I'll downplay it, say we're working on it, and then change the subject. Seriously, what's going on with "not their child" is none of their business.

[Blackcat31]

The op is saying that this child is masturbating constantly to the point of needing medical attention because she's rubbed herself raw. This child is not masturbating in a discreet method, to coincide with being told to go to her room and do it there in privacy. She's spreading her naked legs apart and going to town in front of people, suggesting this is normal behavior for her to do in front of others.
Here are two of the more severe stories of the children that exhibited this exact behavior....One of the girls was put in front of the tv with *****graphic movies by her mother and lesbian lover, to teach her how it was done. The other 4yr old was brought over to daddy's friends houses where they were allowed to have their way.
Both masturbated more than usual, both masturbated themselves raw, both continued the "phase", longer than normal, and both were more casual about masturbating in public than the normal masturbating child.

We are mandated reporters.

I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.

[Heidi]

I don't think that suggests the child feels it's normal to do in front of others.

I think that means the child hasn't been burdened yet with what society deems acceptable.

What if this child were chewing her fingernails raw? How would this same situation play out?

I doubt it will be nearly as controversial...kwim?

Adults place the "sex" and societal beliefs about taboo things onto children. This child has simply not grasped the concept of what is an isn't acceptable in the presence of others.

Just like my 4 yr olds who poop with the door open so they can continue conversing with their buddy. They dont have that need for privacy just yet.

Doesn't mean it's wrong or reportable.

[coolconfidentme]

I've had little boys touch themselves when they noticed they have a penis. I say, "No hands in the pants!" These kids went masturbating by any means.

[tehck_1013]

When I read your post, I got the idea that you were suggesting that anyone who wasn't shocked and appalled by the behaviour was also allowing it to happen. No one so far has suggested that they would allow it, even if they weren't grossed out by it. I'm very uncomfortable with the behaviour, but not grossed out (because I understand that it's normal, and that not all kids that age have the right level of social skill and/or impulse control to stop right away).

Oh, ok I understand where you're coming from. I wasn't saying what I said because anyone else had said that they allow it, I was just saying it because I just really wouldn't. I offered up that line, not because anyone else had said anything about it.

I don't feel like I am in the wrong for thinking it's gross. I wouldn't let her know that I think it is gross. I would just ask her to stop and say that she cannot do that here. I am just speaking about how I would handle it because I haven't had to.

[Naptime yet?]

Not to change the subject or downplay thus discussion, but wait until someone does a search for "pinworms" and this thread comes up.