Pennsylvania DPW

[jen]

To the North central PA caregiver,
I would advise you to do it legal if you really feel led to childcare. Yes PA is tough, but if you were caught w/ operating a non-licensed childcare, it can get costly! Not only will the state come down on you, but your local townships also have rules of how many children a person can watch at a given time. If the utilities get wind of it they too will get you for being a business, not to mention Uncle Sam and the IRS. You may need rezoning for your home as business/residential. Been there done that. The only way you could watch 17 kids, would be license as Center, or if you want to be a home group daycare, you can be licensed for up to 12 kids at any given time. The up-side to running it out of your home legally is that you can claim many tax advantages on your home for upkeep and upgrades. Once in the system you also have many resources, training, and grants available.
Food For Thought......

There is no reason to believe that because she isn't licensed she isn't paying taxes! I have NO idea where people get that idea (you certainly aren't alone in that one!) but being unlicesned doesn't mean you don't pay taxes or issue tax statements to the parents. Also, the utility company has ZERO to do with anything...

[MarinaVanessa]

I am just wondering how the state pads their pockets? The license is free. They even give you your orientation class free. But they do check for unhealthy conditions in daycares. The state sets a minimum standard for day cares, and if you are in Key Stone Stars the standards go up from there, to help improve the daycare available in Pa and to help educate the providers. Sorry that so many are so against the states part in daycare.

I wish CA were like this. Here I had to pay for my orientation $25 and just to submit my application $65. Every year I pay to renew it. The fee to renew is based on how many kids we are licensed for. And then lets not forget to mention all of the other indirect costs that I had to pay for just to be able to qualify to submit my application like CPR training (renew each year), preventative health training (renew every 2 years), fingerprinting and tuberculosis testing for myself and for each adult living in my household. I hear our licensing renewals are going up next year but we'll see and then not to mention that CA now also wants to create a union for daycare providers. Sigh. I can agree with all of the other costs that I have to pay for except for the union fees should they decide to create one. I accept subsidy now (none of my clients are on it at the moment) but don't plan to if I will be forced to pay union dues that I don't agree with.

** Back to the original topic** I would check on the regulations to see what the process is when something like this happens. You may have strict laws about running an unlicensed daycare or the laws may be very slack. Here in CA if you are caught once running an unlicensed daycare you don't have the option of running a licensed daycare for 10 years. If you still go unlicensed and have been shut down once and get caught again you never have the option to run a licensed daycare again and you may be facing charges (fines and sometimes jail). Like someone pointed out, you are probably now on their radar and if they come around again and you refuse to open your door to let them in (which you have every right to) they may just call the police department to report you which the police department may decide to get a warrant to be able to enter your home and may even come with Child Services in tow. Again, this is the process here in CA and in my immediate area and of course things are different from area to area so please do your homework and make an educated decision based on your area. I would hate for you to run an unlicensed daycare and then have to suffer drastic consequenses when you didn't have to. And who knows? Maybe your areas regulations aren't harsh at all. Good luck.

[momofboys]

There is no reason to believe that because she isn't licensed she isn't paying taxes! I have NO idea where people get that idea (you certainly aren't alone in that one!) but being unlicesned doesn't mean you don't pay taxes or issue tax statements to the parents. Also, the utility company has ZERO to do with anything...

ITA with you! I am not licensed ( my state does not require it) yet I still report my earnings.

[DBug]

Illegal is illegal -- I'm surprised so many are recommending that the OP continue breaking the law. I'm unlicensed, but there are still laws in my province that regulate what I do, and I do my best to follow them. Like someone else said, it was the OP's choice to break the law initially, regardless of the reason. If you steal a loaf of bread to feed your hungry children, you're still stealing and need to be ready to pay the consequences (whether it's fair or not).

OP, it sounds like you were doing a great job running your daycare. If you enjoyed it, just go ahead and get licensed and do it legally. If there's something about licensing you don't agree with, find another field to work in.

My thoughts & prayers to you and your family. It sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. I hope it works out!

[melissa ann]

without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!

I am in PA. And to 4-6 children, unrelated to you, you must be licensed. I don't know what you would need to have 17 kids. To me, that is insane. Now, we can all argue over all the regulations etc that each state has. But, in the end, it doesn't matter what we think, we have to abide by the laws in our state.
I am not licensed and until recently even accepted ccis. I never had any trouble by the subsidy agency. They know I have 3 kids that I care for and have 2 of my own. Since I am unlicensed. they said that I have my limit of unrelated children in my care, but I can have 1 more of my own. (no, thank you
Do you have a large house to accomandate such a large number of children?

[QualiTcare]

i don't think being unlicensed is a big deal IF you're doing it within the guidelines. in my state, you can have 4 children and not have to be licensed. if you only have 4 children - why would you get a license if you don't have to?

i had 4 kids and i didn't get a license because i didn't want to be licensed. it gave me a lot more freedom, and i charged more than is average in the area partly because of the low ratio and partly because my degree is in early childhood - parents were willing to pay.

i always think about doctors when i read threads about this and people saying unlicensed care is no worse (or is worse than) licensed care. there are quite a few doctors i know of that are nothing more than drug dealers with a license. in fact, i had a doctor that lost his license for writing prescriptions that weren't warranted. he was literally no better than a thug on a street corner - but he had a license!

[jen]

without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!

HOLY COW!! 17 kids! Ok, I'm sorry but that is crazy!!! You said that your husband is disabled and cannot work so I assume that he is not fully physically capable of caring for children!

I am speechless.

[Lucy]

I am just wondering how the state pads their pockets? The license is free. They even give you your orientation class free. But they do check for unhealthy conditions in daycares. The state sets a minimum standard for day cares, and if you are in Key Stone Stars the standards go up from there, to help improve the daycare available in Pa and to help educate the providers. Sorry that so many are so against the states part in daycare.

Apparently not in every state. I pay $30 every two years. That's on top of $35 for first aid/cpr, $10 for food handlers card, $7 or $8 each for my husband and I to be registered with the Criminal Background registry, and at least $40 worth of continuing education. That's over $120.

[Lucy]

"During my time as a licensed provider (about 10 years) my program had contact with licensing twice. Once during initial inspection and once when a parent complained because her child had chicken pox. Consider, 2 visits in 10 years. Do you honestly believe that an accurate assessment of the program can be made in a few hours over the course of 10 years? A license gives parents a false sense of security. They let their guards down and believe that if the program is licensed, it is safe."

I see them once a year. Our licenses renew every other year, so she comes for a lengthy inspection, then in the off year she comes to chat and give me any updates to requirements as well as some fliers and info sheets about various topics that I can share with parents.

[Lucy]

Wait... 17 kids? Husband not fully able to step in and help? Pool??? I'm sorry, I can't agree with that.

First of all, the law is the law whether you agree with it or not. If you don't agree with it, please take whatever steps you feel necessary to change the law. Don't just disregard it.

Second, that's way too many kids. I don't know about other states, but I'm allowed 10 total. Of those 10, only 6 can be pre-school. Of those 6, only 2 can be under the age of 2. I cannot allow children anywhere near a pool -whether built in, above ground, or inflatable. These laws are in place for a reason.

I tried to resist getting on a soapbox, but I can't just turn the other cheek to 17 kids and a pool. Please consider checking into following the procedures for licensing.

[professionalmom]

Ok, in defense of the OP saying she has 17 kids, did she say that all 17 are there AT THE SAME TIME? Although I am licensed for up to 6 (my own count into those numbers UNLESS DH is home to tend to our children), but I can have have more if they are at different times. For example, lets say I have 5 DCKs from 6am - 3pm and 5 DCKs for 3:30p - midnight. Then I would have 10 DCKs. That's not counting if some of those are part-timers. For instance if 1 kid is here 6am - noon, then another from 12:30 - 4:30pm, then a 3rd from 5pm - 10pm, that's 3 DCKs but none of them are at the same time, so it really only counts as 1 child on my ratios.

As for whether licensed or unlicensed is better, that is simply a difference of opinion. However, if a provider is licensed, that means that her (or his) home has been inspected for safety, background checks have been made, CPR & First Aid certifications are in place, and training is required. This DOES add an extra level of protection. I agree it's a joke that they only inspection when you initially file and maybe, at best, upon renewal or once a year. It's not a huge level of protection, but it IS better than no protection. Plus, the point of having a licensing agency is it TRY to ensure the safety of children. They inspect to make sure the provider is not living in a run-down, falling apart home, with paint peeling off the walls, etc. They make sure that there is a fire extinguisher. Even if that extinguisher expires after the inspection, at least there was/is one. Without a licensing inspection, there's no one to confirm that one is present.

It is SO true that a license is NOT a guarantee. It's not meant to be. It is merely an extra level of protection for the children in care.

I have only been inspected during the initial licensing. But the Food Program Rep comes in 4 times a year and she is a mandated reporter like we are. So, I consider her visits a form of inspection, because if I'm not doing my job right or getting lax on things, she can turn me in. Plus, I have had DC kids who were involved in family issues where social workers would drop-off or pick-up. Again, mandated reporters, so I have to be on guard at all times.

As for not answering the door. I don't answer my door UNLESS I KNOW it is someone safe. You just never know in this day and age. I would demand that a state agent go to one of my windows (I don't have peep holes) and hold up their IDs. Then I call the agency to verify their identity. I may sound paranoid, but the safety of the children comes first here.

As for telling the OP to continue and just ignore the state when they come to the door, that is just crazy. They will be watching her. Plus, whoever turned her in will report her again. Plus, since she has been shut down and the state is already involved, that would be a second offense. I don't know what the laws are in the various states, but this could result in criminal actions against her. Then with a "child endangerment" on her record, she would permanently lose her ability to get a license in the future.

My advice: Do what the other posters have said about getting the paperwork, for getting the license, going ASAP. Ask, or beg, the licensing agency to let you operate on a provision license while awaiting the regular license. Have your clients write letters of recommendation that you can submit to the licensing agency to support your request. Make sure they (the letters of recommendation) state how great you are as a provider and what a hardship this closure is to you, and especially to them (the clients). That's a lot of families that just lost their provider and need to take time off work to find alternate care immediately, possibly putting their jobs in jeopardy, which could result in even more families on aid. Explain that by shutting you down and not allowing a provisional or temporary license, they would be creating an even bigger community problem. Just a thought.

Lastly, I do not condone that fact that you knowingly broke the law, I really feel for you and your situation. I will keep you, your family, and your DC families in my prayers. Keep us posted. I'm sending hugs your way.

Michael - we need a "hug" smilie. Can we get one on here for situations where we want to "hug" someone?

[Daycare mom]

Do Not Agree

Oh Boy if I can warn you against anything it is please do not ignore them and just bring the kids back. First of all are you certain that the person who came was really the DPW? Secondly you are allowed to have up to 6 children in your home for care without licensing. If you had more than 6 then yes you should apply for a license. The regs on a family home daycare are not that bad. Call your local DPW office and ask for a packet. I would not play around with the state in this situation. I know there is a lot of red tape but it is not worth going to jail or getting a fine over. Plus you become more trustworthy when you have a license and you also become able to receive the benefits from the state to help keep you up and running. Daycare is a very profitable business and there are so many opportunities out there to get grants to help with food, bills and supplies. Don't assume that you are on a "watch list" and that the state is out to get you. That is not their objective, they just want to make sure kids are safe. Because even if you are doing a great job taking care of the children you have, some other nutso out there might not be.

[Meeko]

I am a fully licensed provider. My state has two levels of licensing. Residential certificate at a lesser level and fully licensed at a higher level. I am fully licensed and it is not hard. Some of the regs bug me as being pointless..... (After 20+ years of child care and four kids of my own, I despise going to training classes that teach me how to diaper a baby).....But many of the rules and requirements are for the kids and that's what it's all about.

I personally believe that if you are running your day care the way it should be and keeping safety etc a major concern...then there is no reason not to be licensed.

Please do not take this wrong...I know that many of you are not licensed and run wonderful caring home day cares. But there are many out there who would not pass an inspection and the parents only care that it's cheap.

The state is trying to stop the homes where one women will try and care for 25 kids by herself and in conditions you shouldn't keep animals. My own licensor has been to LICENSED homes to do un-announced visits and found horrific things. She came to my home in tears one day after having been to a home where she found a 3 yr old duct taped to a pipe in a laundry room because he had mis-behaved. Who knows what the so-called provider would have done if she knew she wasn't ever going to be inspected. She lost her license and the kids in her "care" are safer now. Imagine if the provider had been un-licensed and knew there was no chance of an inspection?

The state is not perfect. They have many rules that don't really work well for those of us who actually DO child care.....There is waaaay too much paperwork involved.......they don't come often enough to catch a lot of the bad stuff....and too often for those of us who know we are doing a good job and hate the interruptions........but I believe that things would be horrible if child care was suddenly off radar. "Day cares" would pop up all over with kids being taken to women who are not equipped to take are of them.

I think in a perfect world that the PARENTS should be the ones who best know what the best day care is for their kids. But lets get real. We have ALL had kids in our care who's parents are pretty much a waste of space and the kids are just lucky to be in a safe enviroment with us. Those same parents wouldn't bat an eye in taking their kids to a day care down the street that was dirty and overcrowded if it meant saving some money. Sad...but it's a reality.

The state is trying to stop that from happening and to keep day care as good as it can.

Sorry to be so long-winded! Believe me, the state child-care leaders of this state know my name. I am not backward when it comes to telling them that some of their regulations are just plain stupid......but I know they are trying to keep the KIDS safe and not just make MY life easier. So we put up with each other!!

[JenNJ]

Ok. I am unlicensed in NJ, BUT I operate within the state's unlicensed guidelines. I have all safety criteria met, keep in check with ratios, and I am 100% legal though not licensed or registered. So I operate LEGALLY in NJ.

You were not operating legally. PA has pretty easy to read guidelines and you were WELL over ratio and deserved to be shut down. I can understand being one maybe 2 kids over ratio on occasion, but 11 over ratio is dangerous and idiotic. There is no way you can evacuate all those kids in an emergency.

Hopefully you can find a different job to support your family, but I would not recommend doing this again in a different home. Unsafe!!!

[Unregistered]

I'm in Pa...laws are laws no matter if you think they are ridiculous or not. You are breaking the law. It annoys me when ppl run illegal daycares. They should be reported. It's illegal to rob a bank, drive drunk, steal your neighbor's car....would you do that?

Daycare in homes....
With a daycare of 4 - 6 children you need to be registered which is a little different than having a license. 7 - 11 or 12 (im not sure) you must have a license and a full-time employee.