Daycare Without Cry-It-Out

[Heidi]

While I don't do "CIO " officially, I absolutely do NOT agree with carrying a baby or child around all the time. My daughter went through aghast where the ONLY way she would go to sleep was to let her fuss a few minutes. She wouldn't sleep held,in anything,rocked, patted, nothing. I simply fed, changed,put on calm music just as I always had, and put her in the bed. Sometimes she would take 5 minutes, sometimes 10 or 15 minutes. And a few times more than that.

I agree with the pp sometimes babies needs are met and they simply are over tired etc and just need to cry. My experience carrying a baby around left to other habits that were undesirable. I think at some point it makes the come to the point that the ONLY need that the baby wanted met was to be held all the time ... Babies are smart. My daughter did that a lot because she was sick so much and was held a lot at first. Yanno one of those kids who cry like they are dying and you pick them up and immediately they are smiling. Put them back down, they cry again.

Babies ARE smart!!!!


4 mo who is not a "good" sleeper (hasn't learned any self-soothing), is a good example. Over the past few days, I have been helping her (gently) learn to go to sleep without rocking and singing a specific song (not sharing name in order to stay anonymous).

Yesterday before nap, I changed her diaper, and began singing the song. She looked me straight in the eye and CRIED. She KNEW what was comming next just because at home, they sing her that song, walk around, and hold her paci in her mouth for her until she falls asleep. Then, they "sneak" her into bed.

I say: Think it about it from her perspective for a second. First of all, it's disrespectful, IMO, to "fool" her like that. Also, she falls asleep cuddles and sung to, and then wakes up alone. Confusing and maybe a little scary.

I put her to bed, talked to her soothingly, gave her the top of her blanket to hold (she likes to hold a finger, and this is as close as I could give her), put her paci in. Then I said 'Night night" and left. She fussed, so I went in again (2 minutes), replaced paci, smiled, and left. Rinse and repeat 2x, once after 4 minutes, once after 6 or so (estimate). Then it was quiet, and she slept for 3 hours without a peep. When she woke up she was smiling at me like "FINALLY!". ::

So, that was 12 minutes of work, vs. the "5 minutes" I was supposed to walk and sing to her, all the while leaving any other children in the group unattended.

That is NOT CIO, yet she was supported and given the message that she is a capable little human being.

[bunnyslippers]

There have been numerous debates here about CIO. I personally use a modified method of "sleep training", which should not be confused with CIO, but often is.

This means, baby is put to bed awake and prepared (talked to softly, a song, a little rocking). Then, I usually rub their tummy after they're snuggled in, and talk to them softly for a minute. Pacifier or thumb-either way is ok, if that helps them.

Then I walk out quiety, saying "nighty night"

If they fuss, I wait 3 or 4 minutes, then go back and rub, whisper, replace pacifier.

If they fuss, I wait a little longer, repeat...

Keep doing until baby sleeps.

When they wake, I always, always go in and talk to them before I get them up. "Hi...dck...you are awake! Are you ready to get up?" I never pick them up crying, but soothe them with my voice and gentle rubbing first. Once they've calmed, I pick them up.

For over 20 some years of working with young children, this has worked for me. With the exception of a few part-timers, I have had many happy sleepers in my home.

I do this, too. I can't tell you how many times I have parents say, "Good Luck with this one, he never naps." Within a week, I have that same child sleeping for two hours a day, minimum.

Sometimes babies fuss and cry. As long as I know their needs have been met, I let them sort it out for a little bit before I intervene in any way. Works every time!

[Leigh]

So...I have to ask a question of those folks who are super anti-CIO.

How many minutes would you find it acceptable for an infant to cry. Lets say, a 6 mo, to be specific.

I'm not being argumentative or snarky at all.

Just trying to find out what people are comfortable with. If a baby cries for 2 minutes, is that too long? 5, 10, 15? It doesn't matter the reason; they are hungry, tired, whatever. Your busy changing a diaper, feeding someone else, going potty, etc.

I'm thinking that even attachment or no-cry parenting acknowledges that a baby must cry momentarily at the least? Or is the theory that one would be so in-tuned with the baby that you anticipate it's every need?

To answer your question: I don't ever leave a child cry longer than absolutely necessary...if I am changing a diaper, I finish what I am doing and then address the needs of the baby. I am NOT being preachy-I just am trying to treat that child as if it were my own, which is what the kids' parents expect of me. I NEVER left my own child to cry on his own. It's scary for babies-we are all they have. They are completely helpless. If picking them up makes them comfortable, then I do it. I do not want to be the one responsible for a child developing an attachment disorder from being ignored. (Yes, a little dramatic, but I actually DO worry about it!)

[Leigh]

I REALLY wish people would stop suggesting that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment. There is an enormous difference between carrying constantly and just laying a baby in bed and walking away, leaving them to cry for hours on end. I don't think there is a single person here that would do that.

Sorry...don't mean to be snarky! It's just that this conversation comes up once a week or so, and someone always suggests carrying. I have 3 infants and am 48 years old. Even at 28 I couldn't carry all 3 at once.

Yes, a baby cries because they have a need. But that need is not necessarily to be carried around like a sack of potatoes. That need might be hunger, discomfort, overstimulation, being tired, or just plain needing to cry. We all need to cry now and then; I sure do!

When I cry, the last thing I want is someone telling me to stop. What I want is someone telling me that they love me, they will support me, and that they are here to help me.

I don't "do" CIO. But within 2 weeks of being in my program, I could bet you big money that all my kiddos go to sleep happily, with rarely a fuss. They see their beds as comfortable, happy places to cuddle and sleep. Same as me at the end of a long day...

And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.

[Heidi]

And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.

I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.

I was more-or-less responding to this (bolded above), but also to the repetative nature of this particular conversation. As I said, I wasn't trying to be snarky or single you out in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I've been here a long time, and if you read my other 3000 posts (), you'll see that's not how I roll.

So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!

When it boils down to it, there are 4 options.

We've already ruled out option 1: CIO...every one of us.
Option 2 is the "attachment" style, carrying baby, rocking, singing, pacing.
Option 3 is the non-attachment close second...washing machine, driving around, swing, etc. Not even an option, really, because in most states, dc babies must sleep in a bed, not a car-seat or swing.
Option 4 is some version of sleep-training. To me, this is the most realistic, practical, kind, and long-term solution. It can be done gently and with love, and in the long run, both the child and the caregiver are happier for it.

So, on that note, welcome to the forum! You'll find we have quite a few of these debates, some disagreements, and the occasional misunderstandings and hurt feelings. You'll also find support and ideas, and probably have a few of your own.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I read this and found it to be interesting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201112/dangers-crying-it-out

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

And I really wish people wouldn't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said that "that everyone is PRO CIO if they are not willing to carry babies around every moment". I simply answered the question honestly with my own feelings. I treat these babies the way that I would expect my own to be treated by a provider. If I knew that a provider was leaving my own child to cry it out, it would be the last day my child had there. I am NOT into attachment parenting, I DO encourage children to learn how to self soothe. I would never leave a child to cry, though. It's just not right, in my opinion. I also foster parent...I have seen way too many children whose parents didn't attend to their needs as infants-no child deserves to grow up with problems like that, so I do my very best to avoid letting a baby cry. Sometimes, there is one on my lap, and I've got another in the bouncer rocking them with my foot, but I try to make sure that they know that they are not alone and that someone is there for them.

I recently learned from my son's biological family that he was "GREAT" at self soothing from "very early on." Upon hearing that, my son's attachment issues made even more sense to me. His mother didn't like him expressing any sort of need, it all made her angry.
I know how my son was treated because he is able to voice that to me. He has recollections from ages 4 to 15.
He is now 17 and we are working tirelessly to help him through everything. Just my own personal experience.

I have enjoyed reading what everyone else's opinions are and enjoyed reading the linked blog as well.

[Heidi]

I read this and found it to be interesting.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-crying-it-out

Now I'm going to cry...

No, seriously, I am NOT saying anybody should be letting a baby CIO! My point is NO ONE HERE DOES THAT (to my knowledge).

I wish there was a study where someone timed how many minutes over 1 year a "no-cry" infant actually cried in comparison to a "give em a chance to self-soothe first" infant. I bet it's dang close in the long run.

I'd venture to guess that the no-cry baby would cry slightly less in the first 6 months, but more in the 2nd, and it would all equal out in the end. Heck, too bad we can't do a 2 or 4 year study.

[preschoolteacher]

Babies ARE smart!!!!


4 mo who is not a "good" sleeper (hasn't learned any self-soothing), is a good example. Over the past few days, I have been helping her (gently) learn to go to sleep without rocking and singing a specific song (not sharing name in order to stay anonymous).

Yesterday before nap, I changed her diaper, and began singing the song. She looked me straight in the eye and CRIED. She KNEW what was comming next just because at home, they sing her that song, walk around, and hold her paci in her mouth for her until she falls asleep. Then, they "sneak" her into bed.

I say: Think it about it from her perspective for a second. First of all, it's disrespectful, IMO, to "fool" her like that. Also, she falls asleep cuddles and sung to, and then wakes up alone. Confusing and maybe a little scary.

I put her to bed, talked to her soothingly, gave her the top of her blanket to hold (she likes to hold a finger, and this is as close as I could give her), put her paci in. Then I said 'Night night" and left. She fussed, so I went in again (2 minutes), replaced paci, smiled, and left. Rinse and repeat 2x, once after 4 minutes, once after 6 or so (estimate). Then it was quiet, and she slept for 3 hours without a peep. When she woke up she was smiling at me like "FINALLY!". ::

So, that was 12 minutes of work, vs. the "5 minutes" I was supposed to walk and sing to her, all the while leaving any other children in the group unattended.

That is NOT CIO, yet she was supported and given the message that she is a capable little human being.

Sounds like a great way to fall asleep, in my opinion. I like how you worked with her!

[preschoolteacher]

So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!

The reason I was thinking about CIO in the first place was actually because it's a pretty popular thing to do right now among the moms I know. I'm in several mom groups in my city, and I was really surprised to be the only one out of 10 who was not 100% in favor of CIO when it came up at our last meeting. By CIO, I mean babies who are crying for 1-2 hours at the beginning of the night and any time they wake up. Even our instructor was supportive and encouraging of this...

[Heidi]

The reason I was thinking about CIO in the first place was actually because it's a pretty popular thing to do right now among the moms I know. I'm in several mom groups in my city, and I was really surprised to be the only one out of 10 who was not 100% in favor of CIO when it came up at our last meeting. By CIO, I mean babies who are crying for 1-2 hours at the beginning of the night and any time they wake up. Even our instructor was supportive and encouraging of this...

HOLY CRAP!

Ok, thanks for explaining that.

I read your response to another post, and I love you ideas. Sorry if my responses started something or got us off on the wrong foot. :hug:

[MarinaVanessa]

There have been numerous debates here about CIO. I personally use a modified method of "sleep training", which should not be confused with CIO, but often is.

This means, baby is put to bed awake and prepared (talked to softly, a song, a little rocking). Then, I usually rub their tummy after they're snuggled in, and talk to them softly for a minute. Pacifier or thumb-either way is ok, if that helps them.

Then I walk out quiety, saying "nighty night"

If they fuss, I wait 3 or 4 minutes, then go back and rub, whisper, replace pacifier.

If they fuss, I wait a little longer, repeat...

Keep doing until baby sleeps.

When they wake, I always, always go in and talk to them before I get them up. "Hi...dck...you are awake! Are you ready to get up?" I never pick them up crying, but soothe them with my voice and gentle rubbing first. Once they've calmed, I pick them up.

For over 20 some years of working with young children, this has worked for me. With the exception of a few part-timers, I have had many happy sleepers in my home.

This is pretty much how I handle infants in general too ... nap time or not.

[Play Care]

I do not do "cry-it-out". I see it as inhumane treatment. Babies cry when they have a need that hasn't been met. Meet the need, and the baby doesn't cry. I couldn't live with myself if I just laid an infant down and walked away. How do I make it work? I just pick the baby up and carry him/her with me until I have the time to meet his/her need. A baby carrier is a big help.

I was more-or-less responding to this (bolded above), but also to the repetative nature of this particular conversation. As I said, I wasn't trying to be snarky or single you out in any way. Sorry if it came off that way. I've been here a long time, and if you read my other 3000 posts (), you'll see that's not how I roll.

So, I was saying that because the debate is so...well...old. Every week or 2, someone says "I can't get baby to sleep but I don't do CIO". Honestly, NO ONE here does CIO. We all know it's inhumane!

When it boils down to it, there are 4 options.

We've already ruled out option 1: CIO...every one of us.
Option 2 is the "attachment" style, carrying baby, rocking, singing, pacing.
Option 3 is the non-attachment close second...washing machine, driving around, swing, etc. Not even an option, really, because in most states, dc babies must sleep in a bed, not a car-seat or swing.
Option 4 is some version of sleep-training. To me, this is the most realistic, practical, kind, and long-term solution. It can be done gently and with love, and in the long run, both the child and the caregiver are happier for it.

So, on that note, welcome to the forum! You'll find we have quite a few of these debates, some disagreements, and the occasional misunderstandings and hurt feelings. You'll also find support and ideas, and probably have a few of your own.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Now I'm going to cry...

No, seriously, I am NOT saying anybody should be letting a baby CIO! My point is NO ONE HERE DOES THAT (to my knowledge).

I wish there was a study where someone timed how many minutes over 1 year a "no-cry" infant actually cried in comparison to a "give em a chance to self-soothe first" infant. I bet it's dang close in the long run.

I'd venture to guess that the no-cry baby would cry slightly less in the first 6 months, but more in the 2nd, and it would all equal out in the end. Heck, too bad we can't do a 2 or 4 year study.

I actually read a study on that as well and I have no idea where it is! Basically, infants that the person writing it said "self soothe" wake up less and cry out less than infants that are rocked/bounced/held to sleep at 6 months+. It went on to say that those infants turned into toddlers/preschoolers who woke up seeking comfort until about their 4th year of life.

[preschoolteacher]

Sorry if my responses started something or got us off on the wrong foot. :hug:

Not at all! I've noticed and liked your ideas on other posts, too.