Hands Off vs Hands On

[CalCare]

I know that for me, the play room is our everything room so it HAS to be cleaned up every time we change activities, or we don't have room for the next activity. this includes nap and meals, which I can NOT budge on for food police reasons.
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Of course to naps and food. And the idea of leaving it was for when Josiegirl said they needed to get shoes on and go outside.
But, yes, over all I agree with trying to strike a balance between providing for the needs of one and the needs of the group. But, I know for a fact if I ever did a hands over hands forced clean up in my college lab classes, I would have gotten a heck of a reaction from my professors! And I also know absolutely no one does this in respected programs here. If a newbie teacher or assistant did, it would be cleared up immediately that it's not acceptable. The hand over hand thing for clean up is really not accepted. Physical handling is when necessary. Like you said, if they must get in a car seat and won't. Or have to diaper change and they won't. Or if they are climbing a table. Or if they are about to hurt someone. Not for cleaning up though. That one child doesn't NEED to clean up for the clean up to happen. That's making them do it because you want compliance. If they won't get in the car seat and you have to go, that one child does have to do it, to make it where you can leave. There's a difference.

[hwichlaz]

Of course to naps and food. And the idea of leaving it was for when Josiegirl said they needed to get shoes on and go outside.
But, yes, over all I agree with trying to strike a balance between providing for the needs of one and the needs of the group. But, I know for a fact if I ever did a hands over hands forced clean up in my college lab classes, I would have gotten a heck of a reaction from my professors! And I also know absolutely no one does this in respected programs here. If a newbie teacher or assistant did, it would be cleared up immediately that it's not acceptable. The hand over hand thing for clean up is really not accepted. Physical handling is when necessary. Like you said, if they must get in a car seat and won't. Or have to diaper change and they won't. Or if they are climbing a table. Or if they are about to hurt someone. Not for cleaning up though. That one child doesn't NEED to clean up for the clean up to happen. That's making them do it because you want compliance. If they won't get in the car seat and you have to go, that one child does have to do it, to make it where you can leave. There's a difference.

Quite often, the current method doesn't stay the recommended method because over time it becomes apparent that it's not beneficial. That's why I'm saying moderate approaches. A child does eventually need to learn to comply with things that are good for the group....it's necessary for survival in our culture...unless you want to end up visiting them through glass. It's so important to teach when compliance is expected and necessary and when it's okay to refuse for your own good/safety. I've seen a lot of extremes over the years, and from moving around (some things seem to be regional) and no extreme has ever been good. Giving them time to comply on their own, and then insisting is what I've seen get the best results long term. In school, kids who haven't learned to comply when appropriate get sent home, or sit in the office, or worse...misss recess. I'll absolutely allow them to sit and miss out on outside play because they refuse to comply with safety precautions, like shoes and a sun hat. But I will not allow them to expect others to clean up for them when they are capable. So far as a group...my graduates are the favorites of the local teachers. They have independent skills, work well in groups, and are respectful, while also standing up for themselves as necessary.

Luckily, I'm self-employed and can take the good from the fads and leave the rest. I do have a degree in ECE BTW, but it's over 20 years old.

[hwichlaz]

adding, I do use other consequences when possible...like leaving a little bit of the mess for the child to clean up and allowing everyone else to move on. This doesn't work for nap or meal time, but I can do it at other times. Some kids will sit and thrash around and scream for a min then clean up....others will just sit and not participate...which isn't really good for them either....but what battles I'm willing to fight depends on their age and when they need to be ready for kindy too.

[Ariana]

Exactly. I Have become hesitant to comment on certain threads - like this one. Because I seem to always get a bad response when I talk about RIE or, really, many generally accepted practices I learned in school. But since you already mentioned it! Yes, this is a body autonomy issue and I keep hands off as much as possible. Now, that's not to say I try to convince kids to comply with something I need them to do. I feel it's just an atmosphere of respect. If Johnny doesn't want to put the trains away, I can wait for a minute. I don't need immediate compliance. But if they really aren't going to do it, I can tell them, "I need you to put the trains in the tub because it's time to go. You don't want to put the trains away" (sometimes they truly just want to be heard, seen, validated). If they dont after a comment like that (me describing the situation), then I offer, "Put the trains in the tub, please, or I will help you put them in"... Wait. Still no response, then at least describe what you are doing to their body when you do it, "I'm going to hold your hand while we put this in now" (as you do it). I have seen RIE practice make miracles happen . I went from boiling with irritation at seemingly disrespectful kids, to really connecting and having mutual respect...

This is exactly what I say! I use this with my own kids and it worked beautifully. I would sometimes do hand over hand and describe what I am doing, then give them a chance to domit on their own. With daycare kids, especially part time, it can be hard to do this when they are used to a different style at home.

[Ariana]

Of course to naps and food. And the idea of leaving it was for when Josiegirl said they needed to get shoes on and go outside.
But, yes, over all I agree with trying to strike a balance between providing for the needs of one and the needs of the group. But, I know for a fact if I ever did a hands over hands forced clean up in my college lab classes, I would have gotten a heck of a reaction from my professors! And I also know absolutely no one does this in respected programs here. If a newbie teacher or assistant did, it would be cleared up immediately that it's not acceptable. The hand over hand thing for clean up is really not accepted. Physical handling is when necessary. Like you said, if they must get in a car seat and won't. Or have to diaper change and they won't. Or if they are climbing a table. Or if they are about to hurt someone. Not for cleaning up though. That one child doesn't NEED to clean up for the clean up to happen. That's making them do it because you want compliance. If they won't get in the car seat and you have to go, that one child does have to do it, to make it where you can leave. There's a difference.

To me this is where the challenge of my job comes in, trying to gain compliance without hand over hand. Most of the time I am successful because I know how to have good consequences, like losing a turn with a toy. In real life no one forces us to do things BUT there are consequences to actions...so I provide the consequences so their actions become self motivating. They start to think "If I do X I will get to do Y"

[hwichlaz]

This is exactly what I say! I use this with my own kids and it worked beautifully. I would sometimes do hand over hand and describe what I am doing, then give them a chance to domit on their own. With daycare kids, especially part time, it can be hard to do this when they are used to a different style at home.

This is what I'm describing. Giving them a few chances with and without varying degrees of "help". It does work beautifully. And is really only needed with 18 months to shortly after the 3rd birthday most of the time.

[Ariana]

This is what I'm describing. Giving them a few chances with and without varying degrees of "help". It does work beautifully. And is really only needed with 18 months to shortly after the 3rd birthday most of the time.

Yes exactly! It usually only takes a few tries. I have one chikd who continually takes the chalk and marks up my carpet....and it is staning my carpet I don't want to take the chalk away but he has to learn to bring the chalk back when he is done. I explain what I want him to do "bring the chalk back to the chalk board", state it 3 times while pointing and then gently guide him to the chalk board reiterating the direction. He now complies right away to the direction. Now if he does not comply the chalk gets taken away and he can no longer play with it for that day. Begin again the next day.

[CalCare]

Yes exactly! It usually only takes a few tries. I have one chikd who continually takes the chalk and marks up my carpet....and it is staning my carpet I don't want to take the chalk away but he has to learn to bring the chalk back when he is done. I explain what I want him to do "bring the chalk back to the chalk board", state it 3 times while pointing and then gently guide him to the chalk board reiterating the direction. He now complies right away to the direction. Now if he does not comply the chalk gets taken away and he can no longer play with it for that day. Begin again the next day.

See in that situation, I would consider it the adult's responsibility to not give the chalk, which is apparently developmentally inappropriate for that particular child. I would take it away and say, "You're showing me you can't use the chalk without messing up the carpet. We can try again another time." And keep art supplies limited to that child. I don't give them the choice to destroy property.

[Ariana]

See in that situation, I would consider it the adult's responsibility to not give the chalk, which is apparently developmentally inappropriate for that particular child. I would take it away and say, "You're showing me you can't use the chalk without messing up the carpet. We can try again another time." And keep art supplies limited to that child. I don't give them the choice to destroy property.

How is this different from what I am doing?

[hwichlaz]

How is this different from what I am doing?

Right? She's watching him and making sure he puts away, sometimes with physical help. Which is not any different than just taking it from him...except this is actually teaching something.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

I know that for me, the play room is our everything room so it HAS to be cleaned up every time we change activities, or we don't have room for the next activity. this includes nap and meals, which I can NOT budge on for food police reasons.

I think to give a chance to do it on their own, including simple directions about what to do, then stepping in and adding a little help (bringing the toy bin to the child), and then doing hand over hand to help them while talking to them about it is not teaching them they aren't in control of their own bodies. It's teaching them that there are things that we all HAVE to do even when we don't want to. And the caregiver that's making sure you get your needs met is also making sure you learn this lesson....which is a need. ALL methods need to be moderate. Never touching, never physically picking them up and making them go where they need to go is going to an extreme, just as ALWAYS doing it would be. Showing them when and how they must comply from a young age helps them when they are older. There are times when they do get a choice, those times are when it doesn't affect the whole group...or the people that need to get you into the car and get you home so Miss Heather can stop working for the day. IME children that are parented and cared for consistently with moderate methods fair the best. They learn to bend rather than break. Always give them a chance to do it on their own. Thank them or praise them when they do. If they are the only one affected by their refusal, let them sit and stew in it, . But if the group needs something to be done, then they need to comply, or be helped to comply. It's part of learning not to be self-centered.

[CalCare]

Right? She's watching him and making sure he puts away, sometimes with physical help. Which is not any different than just taking it from him...except this is actually teaching something.

It's just the difference between situations. This would teach ME not to make chalk available to him. When you say "except this is actually teaching something" what does it teach? I'm not being snarky. Do you mean it teaches them to listen and do as you told him? Or teaches him to use the chalk correctly? I don't think it does, it can't make him master self control by losing the chalk. He just isn't ready for the chalk and doesnt have the self control required to use it without destroying property. I wouldn't maybe use this situation to try to teach him something. I would just know now he shouldn't have the chalk. So, I take the chalk because oops, I left something out for you when I shouldn't have. It's hard to explain every situation and every detail thoroughly via message board! But, my point is many respected programs and parents don't believe in physically manipulating a child's hand without a real good reason. Who knows, maybe I would've asked for the chalk in this situation as well, and gave time. There are so many subtleties to everything in childcare. Straight out Taking the chalk or asking for the chalk and then taking it when they don't give it are different from "hand over hand" moving the child to put it away.

[Ariana]

It's just the difference between situations. This would teach ME not to make chalk available to him. When you say "except this is actually teaching something" what does it teach? I'm not being snarky. Do you mean it teaches them to listen and do as you told him? Or teaches him to use the chalk correctly? I don't think it does, it can't make him master self control by losing the chalk. He just isn't ready for the chalk and doesnt have the self control required to use it without destroying property. I wouldn't maybe use this situation to try to teach him something. I would just know now he shouldn't have the chalk. So, I take the chalk because oops, I left something out for you when I shouldn't have. It's hard to explain every situation and every detail thoroughly via message board! But, my point is many respected programs and parents don't believe in physically manipulating a child's hand without a real good reason. Who knows, maybe I would've asked for the chalk in this situation as well, and gave time. There are so many subtleties to everything in childcare. Straight out Taking the chalk or asking for the chalk and then taking it when they don't give it are different from "hand over hand" moving the child to put it away.

He stopped marking on the carpet so he did in fact learn to use the chalk appropriately. How do you remove chalk from one child when I have 6 in the room. I take the chalk out for the kids who want to use it and then he goes to the chalk board and takes the chalk. I don't want to micromanage every little thing the kids do and I like having chalk available to them to use appropriately. This is why I need this particular child to learn to use it appropriately and thankfully after a few tries of guiding him back to the board he understood my direction. This way he had the opportunity to learn rather than not giving him that chance to begin with. I am not taking any offense, I am just having a discussion! Love discussing this stuff

Although I do agree with MANY RIE principles sometimes in a daycare setting they are not realistic in my opinion and experience. Unless the parent is practicing RIE at home (which would be great) it sometimes doesn't work.

[MarinaVanessa]

Although I do agree with MANY RIE principles sometimes in a daycare setting they are not realistic in my opinion and experience. Unless the parent is practicing RIE at home (which would be great) it sometimes doesn't work.

Very true. I love RIE and I incorporate many of it's principles but RIE is a parenting style. We can only do our best to put it to use in our daycare's but there's no way to incorporate every aspect when you have other kids to think about too. And some other things I feel are just silly and too dramatic ... like only giving babies clear rattles so they can see what's inside.

[CalCare]

But RIE is only a parenting style because it's been adapted by parents. It was developed for care of many children in an orphanage with lower number of adult staff. It's literally made for childcare.