Teacher In Need Of Advice

[Bookworm]

I teach 4 yr olds in a small preschool and I am having some challenges with "childhood curiosity". I involves a boy and girl. For the past 6-7 weeks there have been incidents of pulling down pants, tongue touching and kissing. We (Director and I) have reported these incidents to both sets of parents and received different responses from the parents. Girl parents were upset because they don't know where this behavior is coming from and Boy's mom was upset because we told her about her child's actions.

It was decided that would closely monitor both of them to see when and where the incidents happen. It was quickly discovered that they happen when I get off work and the afternoon teacher takes over. Now before you ask, the afternoon had been completely informed of the situation and was ask to try to keep an eye on both of them as best she could. Well, needless to say, afternoon teacher didn't try to keep an eye out which led to an incident of genital touching (with fingers).

The next day, I was called into the office with the Director and Girl parents to tell me of the previous days incident. Girl's parents were understandably pissed. The Director stated she would talk to Boy's mom and I said that I will keep them separated. I then told the afternoon teacher what happened and asked her again to be vigilant.

Everything was fine for a few weeks, when I personally witnessed the two of them sneaking off together while we were on the playground. I immediatly followed them with another teacher and caught them trying to kiss. I pulled both children aside and called the Director and had a talk with both children about inappropriate touching and that they should only kiss mommy/daddy. Both parents were told about the incident and it was decided that they should no longer play together.

Did I handle this correctly? Is there anything that I should or shouldn't have done? What would you have done? I understand that children will be curious about such things but I think this maybe beyond natural curiosity.

[Michael]

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[nannyde]

You have done everything you can. You are an assistant and should NOT be dealing with this kind of problem other than supervising when they are on your watch.

Tounge kissing at four, pulling down pants, and touching?

That's REALLY REALLY REALLY serious.

Your Director should have handled this in a serious manner. She should have met with both parents immediately and told them that this is not to EVER happen again. It's not developmentally appropriate. It's not normal kids behavior.

It's terrible and unacceptable behavior PERIOD.

You said: Boy's mom was upset because we told her about her child's actions.

The Mom doesn't get the luxury of being upset because she was told about her kids behavior. It's not an option for her to have feelings about being told. You aren't telling her about it so she can have a feeling about being told. How she feels about being told is between her and Jesus. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with her child's behavior and ability to attend your child care.

It's a way of reacting that changes the problem from the childs behavior to the parents happiness. She's come up with a way to make this about her so she doesn't have to DO something about the kids acting out.

NOT an option.


I hope your Director learns from this. When you just have meetings and say words about stuff like this then it turns into something really ugly really fast. It's time to put ACTION to her words and meetings. The actions needs to be to call protective services, COMPLETELY separate the kids at all times, and let the parents know that if their kid does one more inappropriate sexual behavior under your roof that they are out that day.

I have a home child care and the children are within a few feet of an adult at all times they are up. This would NEVER happen in my house. I would terminate both of these kids the very first incident that was beyond cheek kissing or hugging.

It's NOT NORMAL childhood curiosity. They are FOUR year olds. Bottom line is these kids are being exposed to sexual stuff somewhere in their lives either by being the victims of it or being visually exposed to it. It's not normal and it's not okay.

Get serious with the parents and set very strict consequences and supervision.

[Unregistered]

Tounge kissing at four, pulling down pants, and touching?

That's REALLY REALLY REALLY serious.

Your Director should have handled this in a serious manner. She should have met with both parents immediately and told them that this is not to EVER happen again. It's not developmentally appropriate. It's not normal kids behavior.

It's terrible and unacceptable behavior PERIOD.

You said: Boy's mom was upset because we told her about her child's actions.

The Mom doesn't get the luxury of being upset because she was told about her kids behavior. It's not an option for her to have feelings about being told. You aren't telling her about it so she can have a feeling about being told. How she feels about being told is between her and Jesus. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with her child's behavior and ability to attend your child care.

It's a way of reacting that changes the problem from the childs behavior to the parents happiness. She's come up with a way to make this about her so she doesn't have to DO something about the kids acting out.

NOT an option.


I hope your Director learns from this. When you just have meetings and say words about stuff like this then it turns into something really ugly really fast. It's time to put ACTION to her words and meetings. The actions needs to be to call protective services, COMPLETELY separate the kids at all times, and let the parents know that if their kid does one more inappropriate sexual behavior under your roof that they are out that day.

I have a home child care and the children are within a few feet of an adult at all times they are up. This would NEVER happen in my house. I would terminate both of these kids the very first incident that was beyond cheek kissing or hugging.

It's NOT NORMAL childhood curiosity. They are FOUR year olds. Bottom line is these kids are being exposed to sexual stuff somewhere in their lives either by being the victims of it or being visually exposed to it. It's not normal and it's not okay.

Get serious with the parents and set very strict consequences and supervision.

Nanny: It's a proven fact that this is completely normal childhood behavior. Do your research - I thought everyone knew this. I'm shocked that you actually think this is abnormal, especially with all of the training and consulting you say you do. Read every childhood physch book and behavioral and parent handbook written by doctors and phychs - it is normal. It's terrible that you say you would term children in your care if they did anything like that - I've followed your threads and you are willing to term for anything that doesn't sit well with you rather than really work on it like professional caregivers would. You claim to be especially educated in these things through your research, so I can't imagine why you regularly say you would terminate for common and difficult issues with children. And since when is it required protocol for mandated reporting if children are exhibiting completely normal behaviors?

Bookworm: What exactly did the mother of the boy say to you? You left out exactly what was said - you only generalized it. I doubt she reacted totally like that and I sense that you're looking for someone to blame for this situation out of favoritism or seniority or something - the way you write about the boy's mother doesn't check out. I call that your heavily exaggerating the boy's mother reaction in an attempt to build a case against her. If you are going to report these incidents to the state as Nanny said to, I highly recommend you be honest with both sets of parents beforehand and let them know you're doing so. Expect backlash and a lawsuit and lots of parents quitting your daycare. Get outside opinions - I'm not a huge fan of most opinions on this website and recommend that you actually call a pediatrician on this issue. Very few regular posters here work in center daycares currently - most are home daycares and run things very differently than the real world does. You may get some pretty inflamatory remarks on this website that would push you to make decisions you wouldn't otherwise make - (you would otherwise make level headed decisions). And I wouldn't want you to do something in this situation you would otherwise regret. Think it through and get a doctor's professional opinion and a child psych's professional opinion of this situation and do what they tell you to.

[Bookworm]

Thanx for the advice. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

I am sure that Boy initiates all of the contact and that he is imitating what he is seeing at home. How do you say something like that to a parent. There have been rumors about Mom's private life. There was even an incident where Mom's private life caused a major security incident at the daycare.

The Director is new and in her defense, she has been all over the situation from the beginning. She really doesn't want to put Boy out because despite all of this, he is a very sweet child. I have let both children and parents know that they are no longer allowed to play together. So far I've had some success but I will always have in the back of my mind what's going on after I leave.

[nannyde]

Thanx for the advice. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

I am sure that Boy initiates all of the contact and that he is imitating what he is seeing at home. How do you say something like that to a parent. There have been rumors about Mom's private life. There was even an incident where Mom's private life caused a major security incident at the daycare.

The Director is new and in her defense, she has been all over the situation from the beginning. She really doesn't want to put Boy out because despite all of this, he is a very sweet child. I have let both children and parents know that they are no longer allowed to play together. So far I've had some success but I will always have in the back of my mind what's going on after I leave.

I strongly suggest you contact your DHS

Of your posts these are the main things I would relay to them:

For the past 6-7 weeks there have been incidents of
pulling down pants,
tongue touching and
kissing.

4 yr olds

You supervision plan closely monitor both of them to see when and where the incidents happen.

an incident of genital touching (with fingers).

Everything was fine for a few weeks, when I personally witnessed the two of them sneaking off together while we were on the playground. I immediatly followed them with another teacher and caught them trying to kiss.

This is reportable because it is over a long period of weeks and happnes even when they are being directly supervised. The children and the parents have been told about it and for six weeks the children have been told NO.

Even with firm boundaries you are still having incidences. This means the children are NOT getting that it is inappropriate OR they get it but still want to do it.

These families need HELP and these kids need to be COMPLETELY separated.

Don't let anyone tell you it is normal. Reoffending after numerous attempts to stop the behavior and having forethought to "sneak" away 7 weeks into it from an adult to continue the behavior is your sign that what you are doing itsn't working and the kids and families need HELP.

[godiva83]

I would try not to make subjective comments, only report on what you observe and know to be true. I have worked/ been director in an organized daycare from 2002 to just recently and have seen many children in this age group explore in this nature; however, I have never had to deal first hand with genital touching. I do believe that the showing, kissing, and talking about " hey what's yours like," is normal childhood behavior and part of normal development. At that age they are constantly learning about the worlds they live in and ofcourse that means other individuals. What may seem to look like something sexual, may be innocent childhood curiosity- BUT and a big BUT there is a fine line and you do need to look out for the best interest of both of the children involved.
I say continue talking to the children, introduce appropriate limits and talk about it perhaps at circle, get dome felt board cut outs and do the age old bathingsuit talk. Let the parents know what EXACTLY is going on with out bias if there is, document EVERYTHING, and have open communication with all involved. If it continues, can you separate the children into different rooms?
All the best

[nannyde]

Nanny: It's a proven fact that this is completely normal childhood behavior. Do your research - I thought everyone knew this. I'm shocked that you actually think this is abnormal, especially with all of the training and consulting you say you do. Read every childhood physch book and behavioral and parent handbook written by doctors and phychs - it is normal. It's terrible that you say you would term children in your care if they did anything like that - I've followed your threads and you are willing to term for anything that doesn't sit well with you rather than really work on it like professional caregivers would. You claim to be especially educated in these things through your research, so I can't imagine why you regularly say you would terminate for common and difficult issues with children. And since when is it required protocol for mandated reporting if children are exhibiting completely normal behaviors?

Bookworm: What exactly did the mother of the boy say to you? You left out exactly what was said - you only generalized it. I doubt she reacted totally like that and I sense that you're looking for someone to blame for this situation out of favoritism or seniority or something - the way you write about the boy's mother doesn't check out. I call that your heavily exaggerating the boy's mother reaction in an attempt to build a case against her. If you are going to report these incidents to the state as Nanny said to, I highly recommend you be honest with both sets of parents beforehand and let them know you're doing so. Expect backlash and a lawsuit and lots of parents quitting your daycare. Get outside opinions - I'm not a huge fan of most opinions on this website and recommend that you actually call a pediatrician on this issue. Very few regular posters here work in center daycares currently - most are home daycares and run things very differently than the real world does. You may get some pretty inflamatory remarks on this website that would push you to make decisions you wouldn't otherwise make - (you would otherwise make level headed decisions). And I wouldn't want you to do something in this situation you would otherwise regret. Think it through and get a doctor's professional opinion and a child psych's professional opinion of this situation and do what they tell you to.

This is the opposite advice I would give you and IMHO dangerous for YOUR livlihood, the Center, and the kids involved. The only thing I agree with is: recommend that you actually call a pediatrician on this issue.

Once you get to the FOUR year olds... the seven WEEKS... the tounge kissing and genital touching... The Pediatrician will take the decision of whether or not to turn this in OUT of your hands and do it for you.

So THAT part of the post is excellent advice.


Expect backlash and a lawsuit and lots of parents quitting your daycare.

::

I'm sure there will be a TON of upset parents when they find out you called child protective because two FOUR year olds are tongue kissing, exposing themselves, and genital touching numerous times over a period of SEVEN weeks, conferencing with parents, increased supervision, and repeated admonishments to the kids.



Yeah that'll have em flyin out the door.

Geeze we have actually convinced society that EVERYTHING kids do is okay and normal. Short of killing each other... when you say THIS kind of sexual acting out is normal in a FOUR year old... there really isn't anything left but severe bodily harm or killing each other.

It's unbelievable and so so so so so sad.

[Meeko]

Nanny: It's a proven fact that this is completely normal childhood behavior. Do your research - I thought everyone knew this. I'm shocked that you actually think this is abnormal, especially with all of the training and consulting you say you do. Read every childhood physch book and behavioral and parent handbook written by doctors and phychs - it is normal. It's terrible that you say you would term children in your care if they did anything like that - I've followed your threads and you are willing to term for anything that doesn't sit well with you rather than really work on it like professional caregivers would. You claim to be especially educated in these things through your research, so I can't imagine why you regularly say you would terminate for common and difficult issues with children. And since when is it required protocol for mandated reporting if children are exhibiting completely normal behaviors?

Bookworm: What exactly did the mother of the boy say to you? You left out exactly what was said - you only generalized it. I doubt she reacted totally like that and I sense that you're looking for someone to blame for this situation out of favoritism or seniority or something - the way you write about the boy's mother doesn't check out. I call that your heavily exaggerating the boy's mother reaction in an attempt to build a case against her. If you are going to report these incidents to the state as Nanny said to, I highly recommend you be honest with both sets of parents beforehand and let them know you're doing so. Expect backlash and a lawsuit and lots of parents quitting your daycare. Get outside opinions - I'm not a huge fan of most opinions on this website and recommend that you actually call a pediatrician on this issue. Very few regular posters here work in center daycares currently - most are home daycares and run things very differently than the real world does. You may get some pretty inflamatory remarks on this website that would push you to make decisions you wouldn't otherwise make - (you would otherwise make level headed decisions). And I wouldn't want you to do something in this situation you would otherwise regret. Think it through and get a doctor's professional opinion and a child psych's professional opinion of this situation and do what they tell you to.

This kind of behavior is NOT normal. These children are more than just inquisitive. Normal 4 year old behavior is a quick "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" Then....when told no.......the behavior ends. I've been a child care provider for 25 years. I've seen normal curiosity before.

These two children are waaaaay to sexual with it. Tongue??? Really???? You think that kind of behavior enters a normal 4 year old mind? At least one of these kids has SEEN waaaay too much at home.

Nannye is right. Once we see that ALL sexual behavior in children is "normal" then we are in deep trouble.

As for the center being ready for law suits etc......if I was a parent with a child there and the behavior was brushed off as "normal"....I'd pull my kid in a heartbeat. I would want the boy or girl gone before they showed other children their "not-so-normal behavior"

[Unregistered]

Expect backlash and a lawsuit and lots of parents quitting your daycare.

::

I'm sure there will be a TON of upset parents when they find out you called child protective because two FOUR year olds are tounge kissing, exposing themselves, and genital touching numerous times over a period of SEVEN weeks, conferencing with parents, increased supervision, and repeated admonishments to the kids.



Yeah that'll have em flyin out the door.

Geeze we have actually convinced society that EVERYTHING kids do is okay and normal. Short of killing each other... when you say THIS kind of sexual acting out is normal in a FOUR year old... there really isn't anything left but severe bodily harm or killing each other.

It's unbelievable and so so so so so sad.

Nanny: Once again, another exaggerated post by you. Medical experts should be involved at this point - in no way will this type of behavior lead to serious bodily injury or murder. My goodness, what would you do when boys do their croch pinching like all young boys do -would you call CPS, accusing the entire group of 6 boys' parents of wrongdoing? Sorry, but in most cases, kids will be kids regardless.

This director needs to proceed very cautiously, because what happens if they wrongly accuse the mother of the boy or bias CPS against the boy and it's the girl's family? Parents would and should leave in droves. This isn't an open and shut case like you think it is. What parent would want them to be singled out?

In this particular case, it's possible that one or both children saw or heard something inappropriate for their ages - it's not a crime, just a mistake by whomever exposed them and it's 100% guaranteed. Daytime soap operas have that kind of stuff on there! Is there an older sibling at home exposing either one to this kind of stuff, etc? Movies have that kind of stuff in there. There's a million questions to ask as to where it came from - and most of the time, there's no answer. Ask the experts, they'll tell you the same.

What concerns me the most is what everyone seemed to have missed - how did this type of behavior happen this many times without any adult intervention, only after the fact? There's a definate lack of supervision going on here that both sets of parents should be filing a complaint with the state about. The OP admitted that there was a lack of supervision with the afternoon teacher and she admitted that at least on one occassion that she didn't intervene in a situation where she should have, rather she decided to follow and witness instead - a teachable moment passed. So really, this type of behavior hasn't been prevented, rather it's being seperated and punished but not being prevented - and that's key and important in this situation. Without the prevention, you probably won't resolve this. You can talk to kids until you're blue in the face, but you have to keep reminding of them repeatedly when you think things will steer outside of the rules - and that's a proven child psych fact!

Bookworm: good luck with this and remember to do what's best for the children and to put aside any personal bias.

[godiva83]

I missed the part that this has been ongoing for 7 WEEKs, I agree that this goes past so called 'normal' childhood exploration. This is not just an inquisitive child IMO. However, don't be to quick to simply pull/ term this child, so another daycare has to deal with this behavior. If this is indeed a situation where a child has seen or been involved in an abusive situation it is your job to seek help and get him/her the help they deserve. If you get to the step where the help your centre can offer is not enough, then that is another story. Hopefully there will be a positive ending to this story.

[cheerfuldom]

7 weeks is not "quick to term a child". It would be wonderful if the daycare is able to assist in helping this boy but the priority needs to be keeping all the children safe. If he has to be termed for that reason, then yes, the daycare IS doing the right thing. Its his mom's responsibility to be getting resources to figure out why he is doing this behavior and the fact that she is not concerned at all raises a huge red flag. The daycare is paid to watch this child while mom works, they aren't trained to evaluate the reasons behind excessive sexual behavior nor are they responsible to solve all that this behavior entails. I can't believe this girl's parents are putting up with this for so long. I would have pulled her myself and explored my own options for her if I was her parent.

[godiva83]

The help can be as simple as a call to Children's Aid- but yes, it is their job if they feel this is not normal behavior to get this child help, and to not just term, especially if they are centre based. At least, in Canada it is the law to report anything you may suspect as abuse, neglect ect.

I guess in my personal life/ experience I have seen way too many children fall thru the cracks with out ever getting the help they truly need- they are simply termed and go from school to school. You should really be a partnership between the parents, child, school and the different resources that the school is affiliated with. We as a society really need to start thinking and believing these children are our future let's give them the proper help they deserve in order to live a full life and can contribute back to society in their adult life, we as child CARE providers shouldn't always be so quick to term children for A-typical behavior unless, it truly is out of their hands and can not provide the help the child needs- sorry for the rant, this topic just kind of hits home a little bit

[Meeko]

It saddens me read that there are people out there who are not bothered by this and think it's all perfectly normal. I guess they are the same people who think it's OK for 4 year old girls to wear thong underwear and pants that say "sexy" across the butt.

It is not normal for 4 year olds to be THAT sexual. Curious? Yes, of course. Constantly trying to do it for the last 7 weeks despite being told no? NOT normal. My guess is that the boy has seen waaaay to much at home. That's why the mom is so defensive and trying to act like it's nothing.

Years ago, I tended 3 children. Military family. Dad was deployed. Mom liked to party while dad was gone and thought it was funny for her three year old daughter to watch while she did the deed with her boyfriend (oldest child in school and baby too young to know). Of course the marriage came apart as soon as dad came home and he got full custody of the kids and I became his day care provider.. That was 20 plus years ago and I still keep in touch with him. The dad had ENDLESS problems with the girl as she grew up and it all seems to stem back to what she saw at 2 years old. At four she would play with barbies as if they were having sex. She wanted to "see" other kids. She was sexually active by age 12 and had a baby at 15. then two more before she was out of her teens. The mom's defense was that "sex is normal" and she "didn't really understand what she was seeing" and "we were under a blanket most of the time"

Four year old sex is not normal and should never be acceptable.

[cheerfuldom]

reporting is one thing but I guess I read your post wrong....it sounded like you expected the center to solve this singlehandedly. if the parents are not concerned and other avenues have been tried, what else can they do but term?