Making A Parent Pay For "Damage"

[Unregistered]

***. This is complicated. I have a 3yo DD where the 1st D sometimes stands for darling and other times stands for devilish... She is a challenging child and I am the 1st one to admit it.

She is/was in a home daycare where things have been getting increasingly stressed because of her behavior. She is a strong-willed child who can be hard to handle. (She is also our 2nd, so we have been through this before with a difficult but not too hard kid.)

The daycare we chose professed to not use punishments like time-outs when we picked it almost a year ago. She claimed to have read books like "Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child" and other books on positive discipline. My DD does not respond well to time-outs in any way and so we worked to chose a care giver who seemed educated on alternatives.


I'm going to make a long story short. On Friday things came to a head and the daycare provider apparently tried to do time-outs (which failed miserably) and ended up placing our DD in her daughter's bedroom and closing the door to enforce the time-out.

In response my DD peed on her child's bed. Not a small accident, but a full out pee that soaked the mattress. I got a call to come get her and I did.

I just got an e-mail telling me that if we want to continue bringing her there, we need to work out a new behavior plan and also pay for the cost to replace the soaked mattress. She claims to have tried to wash it with her green machine and it still smells...

I was hoping to keep my DD there until she starts preschool in the fall (she is being evaluated and will likely get a spot in a special needs school) but that's probably not going to happen.

It's being asked to replace the mattress that's really throwing me for a loop. That seems ridiculous. She should NOT have placed my child in that room in the 1st place. Is this normal?

[Starburst]

I agree that it is not advised to purposely leave a young child in a room alone with the door closed (with some exceptions, like bathroom for privacy). That is very unusual conduct of a child care provider, especially one who claims to have read a book on "positive punishment" (doesn't seem very "positive" to me) and someone who says they never do time outs. I think in some states it might even be grounds for at least a citation or warning from licensing/DHS (lack of supervision).

But did you sign a contract? If so, did the contract (or policy handbook) say anything about being held responsible for replacing or paying for lost/stolen/damaged daycare property (including damage to the home and the possessions in it)? If so, then yes that is fair since you agreed to it. And she could take you to court (if it's in her contract she will probably win anyway) or sell your debt to a collection agency if you refuse to pay (weather you stay or not). Even if not I would probably at least offer to pay for 1/2 since that was not one of the agreed punishment and since she shouldn't have placed your daughter in an isolated room unsupervised but you still want to make sure your daughter understands that there are consequences to her actions (maybe next time she wants something say "Sorry, the money I could have used to buy that went to cleaning your accident in the room").

Side note: Do you know if she has tried getting it out with a spray bottle that contains a mix of water and 1/4 a cup of white vinegar? I use it to get the smell of my cats urine out of things they pee on- works great and kills bacteria! I would suggest she try this first before doing anything expensive (If she hasn't already). And if she does agree to use it I suggest you smell it before and after to double check to make sure she isn't "exaggerating" or saying that it doesn't work.

[Blackcat31]

***. This is complicated. I have a 3yo DD where the 1st D sometimes stands for darling and other times stands for devilish... She is a challenging child and I am the 1st one to admit it.

She is/was in a home daycare where things have been getting increasingly stressed because of her behavior. She is a strong-willed child who can be hard to handle. (She is also our 2nd, so we have been through this before with a difficult but not too hard kid.)

The daycare we chose professed to not use punishments like time-outs when we picked it almost a year ago. She claimed to have read books like "Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child" and other books on positive discipline. My DD does not respond well to time-outs in any way and so we worked to chose a care giver who seemed educated on alternatives.


I'm going to make a long story short. On Friday things came to a head and the daycare provider apparently tried to do time-outs (which failed miserably) and ended up placing our DD in her daughter's bedroom and closing the door to enforce the time-out.

In response my DD peed on her child's bed. Not a small accident, but a full out pee that soaked the mattress. I got a call to come get her and I did.

I just got an e-mail telling me that if we want to continue bringing her there, we need to work out a new behavior plan and also pay for the cost to replace the soaked mattress. She claims to have tried to wash it with her green machine and it still smells...

I was hoping to keep my DD there until she starts preschool in the fall (she is being evaluated and will likely get a spot in a special needs school) but that's probably not going to happen.

It's being asked to replace the mattress that's really throwing me for a loop. That seems ridiculous. She should NOT have placed my child in that room in the 1st place. Is this normal?

Did the provider tell you this?

As a provider there is no way I would hold a parent responsible for something that happened behind a closed door as my licensing agency would not be ok with disciplining a child in that manner.

Separating a child from the group is one thing but it cannot be for an extended about of time and MUST be within the capabilities of the provider to properly supervise and when the door is shut that is NOT possible.

Also does your provider have anything in your contract/handbook about broken or destroyed property?

This just sounds wrong....I would not agree to pay my provider for this. NOT if the provider didn't follow rules/regulations of proper discipline.

[Unregistered]

She did tell me that. She had been trying to make my DD sit on a step and she refused to stay there. They got into a battle of wills about it and the provider lost.

I'm going to look at the contract, but I don't remember anything about having to replace things that break. But this seems fundamentally different from a case of a kid intentionally breaking a toy or something.

What I do know is that I'm totally stressed trying to come up with somewhere for my DD to go on Monday. I have childcare arranged for September, but now I need something for the summer.

[NeedaVaca]

I'm curious as to how she had been handling the behavior problems up until now (prior to time outs) and also how you handle the behavior problems at home?

When you say "increasingly stressed" I wonder if the provider was trying these methods and they didn't work either? Had you been talking with your provider about behavior and consequences?

I do NOT agree with putting her behind closed doors for a time out but if you plan on keeping your DD there you should try to work out a compromise for the bed. Ask if you can clean it for her yourself? Now, this is just ME, but I would pay for anything my child broke or ruined. I would feel bad and clean or replace it but like I said that's just me.

[Cradle2crayons]

Call me weird...but I'm still hung up on the info that the OP told the provider no time outs. Time outs are effective if used correctly and consistently and if I'm using time outs for the other kids, I'm using it for ALL the kids. I can just see it now. Johnny goes home and tells mom that he had to go to time out and X child doesn't have to do time outs. Then Johnny's mom calls me up pitching a fit and pretty soon I have no more time outs and the house is shot to heck .

First off, I go over my discipline policies at the interview. If a parent doesn't agree to allowing me to discipline the way I do for all, then they may not be a good fit for my home. Same as if they say their kids can't have naps here etc.

That being said, if from day one provider didn't use time out for anyone (doesn't sound like this is the case though, it sounds like she's trying to make mom happy instead of sticking to her policies) then it would be different.

And to address the damage thing ..... If you didn't sign a contract to.pay for damages, then don't. If it were my kid, I would do my best to clean the mattress because I would feel it teaches my child responsibility. Mary, you peed on that mattress and that is NOT appropriate and we have to clean this up etc....

Even if you did sign a form agreeing to pay for damage, in this case I agree it's different. Your child didn't break a toy. Regulations were broken resulting in the damage. If the provider hadn't broken the rules, it wouldn't have happened. I also agree though if you need care and want to stay with this provider, then do what you can to try to compromise. As a mom, I honestly am not sure if I'd want my child to go somewhere they were not safe. I don't know about the providers daughter but mine has scissors in her room. What if your child hadn't gotten a hold of some scissors and hurt herself????? What she did put your daughter in danger. Or at least potentially in danger. In the least, it was neglect.

That's just my two cents, for what it's worth.

[Blackcat31]

I dont use time outs at all. I find it to be ineffective and have better results with redirection and discussion. For the younger kids, i simply remove the object or activity that is causing issues and make sure our daily routines are consistent.

Discipline needs to be individualized for each child and once your provider found that placing your DD on a step was ineffective, she should have strategized with you about what methods would have been more successful inmodifying your child's behavior.

Repeatedly disciplining in a manner that doesnt work only causes frustration for BOTH the provider and child.

I would remove my child immediately, work on finding a care solution for Monday (as well as summer) and talk with the provider about not being responsible for the damages to the mattress.

I would also consider whether or not to report this to licensing. If the provider is willing to openly admit such methods of disciplining, I cant help but wonder what practices she had that she doesn't tell parents about.

Placing a young child behind a closed door for any length of time is dangerous and very risky imho.

[Unregistered]

1st: My 3yo (newly 3) has been increasing her defiance recently. She is currently in a stage where if she says 'No' to something, she becomes an immovable object. We are working at finding her currency, but it's really hard right now. We're struggling with her and I sympathize with the DCP about that. I really do. Right now we're getting the best results with clearly stating our expectation and then consequence of not listening and then following through every time. DD is very calculating and it's really hard when she seems to weigh her options and then chose the consequence. We are basically following Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child.

2nd: I do not agree with time-outs. I am trained as a teacher and believe strongly that reinforcement works far better than punishment. All the research I have read confirms this and so do the guidelines at most daycares. It is absolutely appropriate, for example, to have a child who is making bad choices stick close to the provider rather than get to go play. But I don't think that making a child sit somewhere as a punishment is appropriate or effective.

3rd: That's actually not my problem. If a time-out had worked (on her stairs) I probably wouldn't object too much. I don't like it, but I realize that she needed to try something. It was the closing my kid in a room unsupervised that bothers me.

4: I know my kid has issues. She has been approved for a SN preschool program in the fall. She doesn't have delays (in fact she's a really smart little girl) but she has challenging behaviors that are getting harder and harder to deal with. But, the basic facts are that she does not hit, bite or hurt other children or the DCP. She simply becomes absurdly defiant at times and we don't have any way to diffuse the situation right now.

She's not going back. The DCP is done with her. I think it's too much. She recently had another 2 kids start and she doesn't have the ability/resources/energy right now to deal with my DD. I get that and I will find someone else until the end of the school year. I don't have any interest in causing her trouble. She reached the end of her rope with my kid and made a bad choice. I live with this kid and I get it. I would never have thought that a 3yo could be so difficult.

My thing is that we have paid for next week since we pre-pay 2 weeks at a time (I'm not asking for a refund) and now she wants us to also buy a new mattress.

[Blackcat31]

Since you arent asking for a refund I would call it over and be done.

If the provider wants to take further action against you I personally do not believe she has a leg to stand on but if she does, I dont think she will be successful.

I am sorry your 3 yr old is so tough.... I had one myself. He is the reason I am in the child care field...

Not many providers had the skills or strength to deal with him. but on a positive note he is now 21 yrs old and a very nice well rounded well behaved contributing member of society that makes this Mama very proud so hang in there.... This too shall pass.

[Cradle2crayons]

To clarify my previous post, time outs aren't my first choice. My first option is to always re direct, etc. however, if those do not work. I use time outs. I agree ey work better for some and not others, however I don't see them as some horrible punishment that damages a child for life either .

Matter of fact, not only do our state licensors recommend it, but it's in our NHI and CDA information as an effective discipline. Not to mention I don't know of a school or daycare here that does NOT use time outs. Of course, our schools here also still do corporal punishment.

I'm not going to say that it's necessary for every child. My son may have been in time out once in the last month, but if I give him that as a consequence to his behavior it's a rare thing he will repeat the behavior because its a wonderful deterrent for him specifically.

While I mentioned in my post that I won't accept a family who disagrees with my discipline techniques or who isn't on the same page with me regarding all of my policies, I don't think it's necessary to respond to that by acting like I'm the devil incarnate for using time outs in my home or daycare setting. It's a choice. I'm educated and have been watching children in my home off and on for 20 years. While I respect others choices on their techniques I ask the same in return. Others may not chose it, but please don't bash me and act like I'm uneducated and inexperienced because I do.

I also have a challenging child who is now 10 as well as one of my step sons who put us through our fair share of misery early in our marriage. He's now 19 in college and also a wonderful member of society. And time outs didn't damage him or me .

[Angelsj]

While I mentioned in my post that I won't accept a family who disagrees with my discipline techniques or who isn't on the same page with me regarding all of my policies, I don't think it's necessary to respond to that by acting like I'm the devil incarnate for using time outs in my home or daycare setting. It's a choice. I'm educated and have been watching children in my home off and on for 20 years. While I respect others choices on their techniques I ask the same in return. Others may not chose it, but please don't bash me and act like I'm uneducated and inexperienced because I do.

What are you referring to in the above bolded post? I don't see anyone bashing you in any way. Just BC disagreeing on the use of time outs. Did I miss a post somewhere?

[Cradle2crayons]

I was simply referring to the way that when people insert their education in the same sentence as saying that time outs aren't appropriate ... That kind of thing it implies that people who use time outs are uneducated and inappropriately "punishing" children. Else it would say "time outs can be effective for some kids and providers I just don't use them"

[Unregistered]

I think that debating time-outs is a topic for another thread. They haven't been allowed to be used in the two centers we have used, and this provider states in her information that she does not use them. It's in all her official paperwork. She simply reached a point where she had no clue what to do with my kid and had backed herself into a corner.

But, I do not agree with them being used, so I will not place my child into a situation where punishments are used. I agree with teaching children how to behave and using alot of positive discipline. I am probably the strictest parent I know. I have high expectations and work towards them using positive reinforcement.

I am going to respond to her (I was giving it a day for both of us to cool off) and state that I think it would be best for all involved to part ways. I will say that I think that the fees we had paid for next week should help her recoup her losses on the mattress. Hopefully it won't go further than that.

[Angelsj]

I was simply referring to the way that when people insert their education in the same sentence as saying that time outs aren't appropriate ... That kind of thing it implies that people who use time outs are uneducated and inappropriately "punishing" children. Else it would say "time outs can be effective for some kids and providers I just don't use them"

Goodness. I must be completely blind today, as I don't see anyone mentioning education at all.
I agree not everyone puts things into the wording we would like, but since it is the internet and we cannot "hear" their intent, I usually try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

(Unless they start calling me some name that just CANNOT be taken anyway other than mean...but those are usually starred out :: )

[bunnyslippers]

OP, you may want to contact your school district. If your daughter qualifies for a SN preschool in the fall, she may also qualify for summer services provided by the school. Some schools have summer programs, other schools contract out with in-home behavioral support. It is definitely worth looking into, as it would be both free and beneficial for your daughter. I am sorry you are having a hard time finding a solution.

I think you made the right call to pull your daughter from this provider. If she felt that desparate, she should have called you to come and get your child. Putting a child in a room, unsupervised, was a bad decision on her part.

As far as the mattress, I think I would probably offer to pay for the damage IF she hadn't put her in an unsupervised situation. Because she closed her in the room, I think she made a mistake that she needs to pay for herself. I feel badly that her child's mattress is ruined, but she made the choice to put your child in that room, knowing that she had behavioral issues. It is a natural consequence for that provider.