Picking Up Toys...What Do You Think

[SilverSabre25]

OH good grief. That's ridiculous. They help make the mess, they clean it up. End of story. I agree with nanny on most of it but still feel the need to put my own spin on a few parts...

Not sure WHY using both sides of the brain is a problem?! :confused:

No evidence that cleaning up as a child makes them clean up as adults? I wanna see a study that was done on this. I want your citation for "no evidence". I also want your citation for a study that was done suggesting the opposite, too--and a website saying, "a scientific study was conducted..." is NOT good enough. Nope, give me the REAL study.

Okay, so children need to develop reversability (I've studied Piaget and honestly, I've never heard of this?!? Unless I forgot). Oo look! I can play the fancy word game too! You model it for them until they reach the zone of proximal development for that skill, at which point you continue to assist as you scaffold them in that skill--gradually letting them take over more of the work, gradually removing yourself from the picture as they learn how to do pieces of the job. (Nanny, not all of us have older kids to teach these skills so we do have to be involved in the process for them to learn it). Putting stuff away isn't reversing an action, it's a different action all together.

You could look at it this way: it's not reversing what they have already done, it is doing something different. Putting the shapes in the bucket is a different skill than dumping them out, sure. So teach them the other skill too. If I had to guess, I'd say that reversing an action has a totally different definition. Even young toddlers are perfectly capable of dumping the bucket, then filling it, then dumping it again, then filling it again...

I can play the fancy term game again! Teaching children to clean up after themselves is pedagogically appropriate as it reinforces specific math concepts, including sorting, matching, and one-to-one correspondence, as well as giving children a sense of accomplishment and responsibility--both very important facets of a child's healthy emotional development. Ba dum ching!

This guy is a crack-pot and I'm tempted to respond as well. Good lord, I've never heard someone insinuate that asking children to clean up is not developmentally appropriate--for heaven's sake, children have been cleaning up after themselves since the dawn of time! Ever read the Laura Ingalls Wilder books?!

[SilverSabre25]

And while "I like how Sarah is picking up!" is not technically the best thing to say from a praise standpoint (although I admit to being guilty of things like that), I don't see anything wrong with, "John is busy picking up." That is an observation, a statement of fact; there's no value placed on it, no adult definition of good/bad, right/wrong. It's just a fact. You could just as easily say, "Look at Bob, he is busy dumping out the toys. Look at Jane, she is busy smearing poo on the walls. Look at Ronnie, he is busy doing differential calculus at age three." It's just a bland statement.

The reason for the boy comments guys is that he's the author of a book on boys in the classroom--"Boys: Changing the classroom, not the child".

[nannyde]

http://www.joyfulnoisedaycare.com/July%202011%20newsletter.pdf

Causes of feeling failure:


•Competition - “Lets see who can pick up the fastest”.
What if a child is slow at it,

If they are slow it takes more time for them to pick up what they have taken out.

I don't do competition for the birth to five crowd. We have an order here and it is based on age. The oldest is the leader. The second oldest is the heir apparent. The third and fourth oldest our our "swing" kids who can adapt easily to being the leader of the youngins or the youngest of the older ones. The youngest are always first in health and safety and last in privledge.

The kids know exactly who is in what role. They know they move up or down based on attendance. Each spot in the order changes where you are and with who and when. It's very predictable. They grow up here so they adapt to the order.



or decides that picking up is
not what he/she is good at.

I don't allow a decision that cleaning up is something you can not be good at.

Does this give the message
that children who are not as fast at picking up are failures
at it?

No it gives the message that the children who are not fast at picking up are going to need more time to pick up and possibly less access to what can be taken out. If the adult JUST gives access to the toys that can easily be taken in and put back then there is no discord or competition.

As the child's picking up skill improves and is at a faster pace then the toys the child has access to become more complicated to pick up and sort to return.



•Standing in line - This invites children to push the
child in front of them.

No pushing. We don't really do stand in line for the birth to five but we do do sit in a line. We have them sit in an order from oldest to youngest. If one of them is froggy they have a spot to sit in that is not within the personal space zone of the ones who sit well.



When they push and get in trouble
they often are punished for something they did not cause.

Yes

If they put their hands on one of the other kids they are in trouble.




•Waiting my turn - This is a skill that is very difficult
for young children.

The way you teach children to wait their turn is by incremental exposures that increase over time. Allow them the success of one minute... then two... then three....

Don't put them in the position where waiting their turn exceeds their ability and don't accept them refusing it because they don't WANT it. It's okay to expect it. It's okay to require it. It's not okay to abuse it by putting them in a position to wait that is beyond their ability.





The longer the waiting time, the more
challenging behaviors occur.

Yes I agree. The conflict comes when the challenging behaviors come with ANY waiting. The conflict comes when the child refuses a waiting time that is reasonable and is conducive to the care and safety of the others.

It's okay to have a child wait while tending to your personal needs, the needs of another child, or the needs of the group. If you are organized, work with deliberation, have a child friendly and safe environment, have enough adults to get the duties done in a reasonable amount of time then the amount of time each child must wait is fair and developmentally appropriate.

What each child learns from infancy thru the age of five in the "laying in wait" times is just as valuable as what they are waiting for. Don't rob them of the experience of having NOTHING to do and NOTHING for them at the moment. That's when they take in... not put out. Taking in is a huge life skill that they learn from the opportunity to be still and take in.

It's the time they see and hear what you DO for others. It's the time they feel what it is like to be the one who doesn't have the adult. It's the time they can watch your loving tender care of the others so they learn they can trust you. It's the time when it's not about them.

That's good for them.

•Asking children to share - Young children don’t
recognize that other children have the same needs as they
have.

I don't know the definition of young but in my home the one to 2.5 year olds aren't expected to share. They have their own area where toys and space are available for them to have on their own without interference. This is a time where we focus on HOW they are playing with the toys, HOW they are accessing them and returning them. It is a time we teach them to respect the space of the other children in their area and to not interfere with what the others are doing.

I purposely have identical multiples of any highly sought after toy. I have the space for them to play with the same things apart. There is no reason to share because they have enough of everything to have their own.

Once we know that they can easily manage single play with lower level toys then we start (in small spurts of time) mixing them in with the children who are co-operatively playing with toys that are more complicated and lend themselves to group play.

This happens around the second year ... some earlier.. some later. That's the average.

Once they begin to play on the "big kids" side then they take on the behaviors of the big kids. The big kids play well together.

We use the big kids to visit on the little kids side to give them the opportunity to play by themselves with the lower level toys and the younger kids.

By mixing in deliberately the older more seasoned players with the younger ones we GRADUALLY show them how to move from parallel play to co-operative play. If they show they can't do that without conflict then we revert back to them having their own area with their own stuff. It only progresses as they progress in skill.


I worry more about children who do not take items
from other children than children who do.

I worry more about the adults understaning who can and can't share and not mixing the two. Mixing the two will land in conflict, hitting, biting, and fighting.

If the adult orchestrates the ins and outs of the play and supervises you will have little to no conflict. If you gradually increase their access to each other and appropriate toys you will see that they seamlessly increase their tolerance. Teach them when they are little what to do with the toys and space and they will naturally do as well with each other.




•Expecting them to act like a little adult -
Asking children to adjust to behaviors that are more
“adult like” causes many feelings of failure when they
cannot live up to the expectations.

They are children not adults. They need adult leadership that is intense when they are first learning and then decreases as they become more independent.

They must have SPACE, supervision, appropriate toys, schedule/routine, and rules.

[Hunni Bee]

I don't see how cleaning up is that big of a deal. We simply do not change from one activity to another without cleaning up from the first. We have a small space, and it must be kept clean. I will not take time from being a provider to clean up massive amounts of toys. My kids are trained from day one. Boys and girls alike. Its not negotiable and its not an issue.

Everything has its own label bin, with pictures and words. If I move something around, I show them. If they need help cleaning, I help - by reminding and delegating. Like Nan said, I don't give them materials that would cause them stress to clean up. If the set has 90 pieces, they get 45 of them.

Its not that complicated to me.

[nannyde]

I love EVERY response! You have very well thought out answers.
I was just too dumbfounded to even come up with ANY responses
My favorite is the "evidence" that the floor is clean today::::::

Here is a link to the author's website. Scary all the teaching he does, awards he's won and the influence he has over so many. I wonder how does someone get to be so "respected" in the field when so many disagree with what he says? He is writing the newsletters that our state DHS sends to all providers so obviously they think he's telling us things we need to know! (That's a serious question!)
Any thoughts on that? Why aren't we all making the money HE makes by telling it like it REALLY IS instead of coming up with some random rules for caregivers? http://www.danieljhodgins.com/

I think it's in response to the common understanding now that we can't say no and we can't give any consequence that isn't distraction and bargaining. This plan is to tell you what to do with the kid who you can't say no to.

It's a lot of words but it really comes down to:

If the kid doesn't want to clean they shouldn't be made to do it.

If you care for a group of kids you should do 70 percent of the cleaning. The thirty percent that is done by the kids is done by the ones who happen to be at the stage where they actually like cleaning/sorting. As soon as they outgrow that stage they can just refuse.

We are to be understanding and allow them the no based on the fact that they simply shouldn't be doing something they don't want to do. We are to see their refusal as a biological refusal not a behavioral refusal.

The one thing he isn't being accountable for is who is going to pay for this. If we are going to have a group of kids who don't HAVE to do what they don't want to do and get to do what they want when they want then you HAVE to enough adults to serve them minute to minute individually so they GET what is "age appropriate" minute to minute.

If our kids need their own adult then there has to be enough money to pay an adult for every kid. What he is suggesting is meeting the individual want/need of the kid while the kids care is being paid as a fraction of the adults time. How can that ever work?