Shouldn't The DC Be Liable For This???

[Mary Poppins]

ST. PAUL, Minn. - A 5-year-old boy knocked on a neighbor’s door in St. Paul to ask for help when his dad tried driving two kids home from daycare while extremely drunk, according to criminal charges filed Wednesday in Ramsey County.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/drunk-dad-picks-up-kids-daycare-jan-6-2012#ixzz1imtiSOZW

He had a BAC of over THREE TIMES THE LEGAL LIMIT when he picked up his kids from daycare?? How the hell did the daycare not notice how drunk this man was??

[e.j.]

How long does it take to get drunk? (I don't drink so I'm serious in asking the question.) I noticed that the article never mentioned what time the father picked his kids up from their day care. Is it possible he wasn't showing any signs of being drunk at that point but then went on to drink in the car for a couple of hours? If he picked the kids up at say, 4:00, could he be that drunk by 6:30 when they found him?

[VTMom]

I didn't read the article but I've been told that I have to release the kids regardless. I could certainly call the police but I have to release the kids to the parent (assuming custody is confirmed).

[Blackcat31]

I am in MN and we are NOT allowed to with hold children from their parents, regardless of whether we feel they are under the influence or not.

We are not trained to make that assesment.

We are to either offer an alternative ride or to call the police if we suspect the parent is drunk or under the influence.

With holding a child from a parent is illegal. Our only recourse is to call the proper authorities.

I will say however, that I have thought many times in my career that a parent may be under the influence but really unless I know from my own two eyes, how do I know they didn't just leave the dentist, are maybe taking cold meds (some can really mess some people up...) or may be diabetic and having low blood sugar, which appears as if the person is drunk or may simply have been up all night or even emotionaly upset or something.....

There are many reasons a parent may appear drunk or under the influence of other things but unless we are trained to make those calls, we shouldn't.

Plus, what IF she (the provider) did confront the father and tell him she thought he was drunk and he couldn't have his kids....what if he was a mean and abgry drunk and started getting violent etc...that provider is alone with other kids and confronting a drunk person is probably not wise when you are alone and not abel to actually confirm he is drunk without doing a breathalizer or blood test?
If the daycare provider in this situation thought for a second the parent was drunk, then yes, she should have called 911 but what if it was crazy and the kids were crying or she was busy with another child and simply said "Hi John! The kids had a great day! See you in the morning!" and that was it....kwim?

So No! IMHO, and according to protocol here, the child care provider should NOT be liable for this. This is ALL on the parent.

I also want to add that I know a lot of people who can drink ALOT and do not always appear drunk. People show their drunkness in many different ways.

[Mary Poppins]

I am in MN and we are NOT allowed to with hold children from their parents, regardless of whether we feel they are under the influence or not.

We are not trained to make that assesment.

We are to either offer an alternative ride or to call the police if we suspect the parent is drunk or under the influence.

With holding a child from a parent is illegal. Our only recourse is to call the proper authorities.

I will say however, that I have thought many times in my career that a parent may be under the influence but really unless I know from my own two eyes, how do I know they didn't just leave the dentist, are maybe taking cold meds (some can really mess some people up...) or may be diabetic and having low blood sugar, which appears as if the person is drunk or may simply have been up all night or even emotionaly upset or something.....

There are many reasons a parent may appear drunk or under the influence of other things but unless we are trained to make those calls, we shouldn't.

Plus, what IF she (the provider) did confront the father and tell him she thought he was drunk and he couldn't have his kids....what if he was a mean and abgry drunk and started getting violent etc...that provider is alone with other kids and confronting a drunk person is probably not wise when you are alone and not abel to actually confirm he is drunk without doing a breathalizer or blood test?
If the daycare provider in this situation thought for a second the parent was drunk, then yes, she should have called 911 but what if it was crazy and the kids were crying or she was busy with another child and simply said "Hi John! The kids had a great day! See you in the morning!" and that was it....kwim?

So No! IMHO, and according to protocol here, the child care provider should NOT be liable for this. This is ALL on the parent.

I also want to add that I know a lot of people who can drink ALOT and do not always appear drunk. People show their drunkness in many different ways.

Good points. I just realllllllly hate drunk drivers for several very personal reasons. If I even suspected a parent came here and picked up one of my precious dck's that drunk... well I dunno what I'd do. ::

Maybe have my assistant distract him while I called my highway patrolman neighbor (who works nights and is home all day) over?

[Mary Poppins]

Seriously, I am just hoping they noticed and are the ones who called LE on this guy.

[youretooloud]

I didn't read the article but I've been told that I have to release the kids regardless. I could certainly call the police but I have to release the kids to the parent (assuming custody is confirmed).

I can stall. I can call the police, but I have to release the kids. I've sent more than a few kids home when the parents were clearly drinking.

My Dad could drink a 5th of vodka in a few hours, and never appear drunk to someone who wasn't very familiar with him. He was a happy drunk, but he was rarely obvious to others.

[Crazy8]

wow, the guidelines really vary by state. In NJ it is specifically written that we are to "prevent the release" of the child if we suspect the parent is under the influence. We are to try to contact the other parent or other emergency contact and if we can't get them we are to call an 800 number for the state.

[Mary Poppins]

I can stall. I can call the police, but I have to release the kids. I've sent more than a few kids home when the parents were clearly drinking.

My Dad could drink a 5th of vodka in a few hours, and never appear drunk to someone who wasn't very familiar with him. He was a happy drunk, but he was rarely obvious to others.

I hate that we have to release the kids to someone who we suspect is drunk, stoned, whatever but I agree, I would definitely do SOMETHING - distract them, call LE, etc. I just can't imagine knowing and not doing anything.

Now that you mention it, I've known a couple of alcoholics who appeared "normal" and even drove "normal", but this story sounds like he was pretty wasted (no shoes, erratic driving?). Meh. I wasn't there so I can't pass judgment.

Here's a great thread from last year I found with some good points about potential liability on our part: https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14067

[Mary Poppins]

wow, the guidelines really vary by state. In NJ it is specifically written that we are to "prevent the release" of the child if we suspect the parent is under the influence. We are to try to contact the other parent or other emergency contact and if we can't get them we are to call an 800 number for the state.

It's crazy that so many states will not allow us to protect the safety of a child!

Mind boggling.

I think a lot of dcp's would say to hell with the law and do what they had to do if it was an extreme situation? At least I hope so....

I've lost too many close friends and relatives to drunk drivers I guess. I have a special hatred for those that CHOOSE to drink and drive.

[Blackcat31]

It's crazy that so many states will not allow us to protect the safety of a child!

Mind boggling.

I think a lot of dcp's would say to hell with the law and do what they had to do if it was an extreme situation? At least I hope so....

I've lost too many close friends and relatives to drunk drivers I guess. I have a special hatred for those that CHOOSE to drink and drive.

I completely agree that it would be nice to be able to do something, but we have to think about our group of children as a whole. We are to protect them ALL at all times. We cannot risk the safety of the other children in care in order to confront a parent, who could possibly become irate and physical in order to protect that one child.....kwim?

Yes, I too, would do whatever stalling and delaying I could in order to quickly dial 911 but ultimately I cannot stop the parent from leaving.

I too, dislike and do not have respect for anyone who chooses to drink and drive. Endanger yourself if you are that dumb but not other people who have a right to be on the roads and feel safe.

As far as the "signs" this father may have put out there such as no shoes......Well, I have one mom who doesn't wear shoes or socks, ever. Well, I guess she wears flip flops now and then especially in the winter. I have also had parents come that basically look homeless but none of those are accurate ways to judge impairment.

Also, I am not positive about the time line but I think I read somewhere that the father picked up the children and by the time law enforcment had been called, more than 1.5-2 hours had passed so he could have appeared completely sober during pick up time....who knows. Also, when he was in the middle of randomly stopping, it was his own child that went to the neighbor and asked for help so I assume it was them who called law enforcement.

I can see how this is a situation that no provider ever wants to be in but again, we have to put the safety of ALL the children we have in care at the front of our minds. If we suspect a parent is drinking NEVER ever confront them! You have no way of knowing what type of substance they may be using and you also have no idea how they will react. If they choose to be violent or physical (or have a weapon ) then you will have twice the problem on your hands than originally.

I have been on both ends. I have had parents be under the influence of somehting and I had no idea as well as had parents I suspected and later found out it was another plausible and legal explanation.

This is a very tough situation to be in.

[Kaddidle Care]

wow, the guidelines really vary by state. In NJ it is specifically written that we are to "prevent the release" of the child if we suspect the parent is under the influence. We are to try to contact the other parent or other emergency contact and if we can't get them we are to call an 800 number for the state.

Our former Director held a child from a parent and called the other. This was a situation where the one parent talked (perhaps a bit too much about personal information) and the Director was aware of substance abuse issues with the one parent. She refused to let the child go with the affected parent.

[Ariana]

We had an incident like this happen when I worked in a centre (I wasn't there at the time) but a dad came in VERY drunk wanting to take a child home. There were 2 teachers there and while one distracted the dad, the other one called the police. They managed to keep him at the daycare long enough for the police to arrive and deal with the matter. I don't think as a homecare provider I'd be getting into any sort of altercation with a drunk man or woman. I'd simply let them leave and then call the police. You never know what might happen if you were to keep their child from them and they're drunk kwim?

[Mary Poppins]

We had an incident like this happen when I worked in a centre (I wasn't there at the time) but a dad came in VERY drunk wanting to take a child home. There were 2 teachers there and while one distracted the dad, the other one called the police. They managed to keep him at the daycare long enough for the police to arrive and deal with the matter. I don't think as a homecare provider I'd be getting into any sort of altercation with a drunk man or woman. I'd simply let them leave and then call the police. You never know what might happen if you were to keep their child from them and they're drunk kwim?

You're right, of course. I just pray I'm never put in this position but in my case, at least, I do have a highway patrolman 2 houses away on one side and a city cop 4 houses away on the other. I have both their #'s on my phone just in case.

I worked at a dc center years ago and instead of a drunk guy, there was a creepy one who would park outside and watch through the huge plate glass window, mostly at night when he could see right in. I often had to close up alone and actually quit because he freaked me out!! Everyone at the place had called on him (including me!) but LE said because it was a public parking area he could do it and they couldn't stop him!

[Cat Herder]

I can say no....and I will. happyface

There are two choices: leave child here and have spouse come pick BOTH of them up or leave here in a police car and their child stays with me. Their choice.

I tell them that in the interview....they KNOW I mean it.

Each State varies.

Funny thing is that, here, their mug-shot photo gets published in a "wall of shame" kind of publication magazine (think criminal version TMZ). It is sold at the gas stations on Fridays for $2.99. Everyone who is arrested each week is put in there with their charge..it is VERY popular and includes 3 counties so far (I think it is regional, maybe it is everywhere?). The money goes to support local police and drug/alcohol education in our schools.