UPDATE: DCB Violent Towards My Animals

[Lilbutterflie]

I posted last week about my 5 yo almost out of the blue showing violent actions towards my dog. The last two weeks with him have been a nightmare. Last week there was only ONE day out of 5 that he didn't hit or kick my dog, or chase my cat around with a toy that scared the cat to death. I have watched him intently during this time, and noticed that these instances occur when he is angry; or when he is super excited about beginning an activity. This boy has energy that will last forever, and he's using my animals as his energy outlet.

I gave my daycare family a warning of probation of Friday. He has 30 days to improve his behavior, but in that period of time if he has another week like this past week; he will be gone immediately. Mom has accepted there is a major problem, but just keeps telling me they sit down and have talks at home. I have mentioned on more than one occasion that I believe he needs to be seen first by his pediatrician, and that I believed his Dr. would refer him to a therapist. She admitted he'd already been referred to a therapist months ago for OCD behaviors and that they had not gone yet. I urged her to let his Dr. know about the recent events. Still no mention of doing this, she just keeps saying they will have a talk. I told them on Friday that she has two options: take him to his Dr to discuss his recent violence towards animals or find a daycare that did not have animals. The reply is "We're going to sit down and have a talk with him."

I know most are wondering why I have done the probation and not just terminate care. Well, I only keep 3 children beside my own. DCB and his two siblings are my entire income. I want to try to work this out; and really I am so concerned about dcb that I want him to be seen by a therapist so we can all work on this together.

I have two questions:
1. Can I require him to be seen by a therapist to continue my care?
I really do think I have enough evidence to suggest his behavior is NOT normal for a boy his age. I have documented every single behavior of his since the first of this year, the actions I took to correct it, and parents reaction if any. He's always been absolutely defiant; but the violence and aggression has been very recent in the last 3 weeks.
2. Have any of you advertised for a potential opening when you have someone on probation?
In my case, I'd be advertising for up to 3 potential openings b/c I would assume if dcb goes to another daycare; that the other two would as well. How do I go about telling people that this is just a potential opening? Or do you just NOT tell them it's potential?

[Zoe]

I don't know about the legality of requiring the child go to the dr., but I think you're right by requiring the child's behavior to improve soon or else he has to go elsewhere for childcare. He's hurting your animals. It is your business and you're protecting it as well as your pets. There's nothing wrong with that!

I've advertised before while a child was on probation. He was my only dcb and I had the feeling his behavior wasn't going to improve. I wouldn't explain to potential clients that it is a potential slot. If for some reason dcb does improve, you can always tell any interested parties that the slot is no longer available. Since this is your only family and your sole income, I wouldn't hesitate to advertise.

[nannyde]

told them on Friday that she has two options: take him to his Dr to discuss his recent violence towards animals or find a daycare that did not have animals. The reply is "We're going to sit down and have a talk with him."

Parent translator: Your whole income is us. I'm not worried about you letting us go. I can say the words "turtle sauce with goats milk" and it will mean the same as any other words I give you.

Honey they aren't worried at ALL that you are going to terminate them. They know better. If they do get booted out they will find the person who will take three kids for all of their income.

The ONLY thing that will get them to work this out is if your care is so cheap that they can't replicate it. They need TIME to find out if that is possible. The "we're going to sit down and have a talk" is the words they need to bide the time they need to find another cheap deal that's convienient for them AND gives them the service level you give them. They may have already found the cheap but now searching the cheap and the quality/hours/close to that they are used to.

If you are really cheap, convienient to them, and have all the hours they want you have an in. If you are normal priced, have fixed hours, and are of average in the ways of what they GET you most likely don't. It's as simple as that.

You can tell them that they must see a counsellor to keep services but you can't tell them they must if you are going to keep them whether they do or not.

These guys KNOW there is something wrong with him and hid the truth from you FOR A REASON. It doesn't serve them to tell you the truth or deal with your truth. They are getting special needs care for the price of *** and possibly even a sib discount to boot. Free or near free is GOOD for them. They are going to keep that until they can find it again and they will come up with stall phrases as long as you will accept them and cash the check every week.

[Unregistered]

work on it- units on touch, feelings, animals.

Start a unit on personal space and gentle touches.

Practice these and reward him - on stuffed animals. (Maybe ask mom to bring one or some for this unit)

Talk about feelings! Use TA for Tots or some other structure to discuss negative feelings and how to work with them.

Teach positive ways of showing excitement. ( A happy song, clapping hands, hooray...)

Keep the animals out of the way and out of reach - its not fair to them to be part of the game unless everyone knows the rules.

Unless mommy and daddy have pets, this may be something he can only learn with you!

Don't give up, and really reward a positive change. If he acts poorly, sit everyone down and talk about how it makes you feel, to do it, to see it, to have it done to you. Does anyone else do this? Why not? Is he jealous? (Are you kind and gentle with the animals? Do you say sweet things to them? Does he want that attention?) Give him his own good attention. Model kindness for him. Tell him how nice it is to see him using his gentle words and touches. Give him his own (stuffed) pet and help him teach it to be gentle.

Add a unit on animals - wild and other....talk about their needs and how they learn to be kind just like we do.

In this whole process, you might learn that someone has been unkind to him. Talk about how he felt. Draw pictures of that time. Find a time when some one was kind, draw pictures of that too! If that happens, use this to help with therapy. If it is simply a behavioral pattern, new patterns should help. If he HAS to hit, give him a pillow, punching bag, or padded rug spot. Displace the concept that physical aggression is power with the concept that it is MORE powerful to make good feelings. Identify those and ways to make them happen - and reward with smiles, compliments, and thank-yous!

End the unit with a play, showing everything you learned, and invite parents to feel good night. Let him practice the play a lot! Let some of the scenes be him playing animals getting a good touch, some where he is a parent giving a good touch. 5 is totally time for dramatic play and role playing will help a lot. Make a certificate for the end of the unit with a license to make good feelings. Present it after the play.

[Unregistered]

not about the money, or terming, but about meeting the emotional needs of the child

Parent translator: Your whole income is us. I'm not worried about you letting us go. I can say the words "turtle sauce with goats milk" and it will mean the same as any other words I give you.

Honey they aren't worried at ALL that you are going to terminate them. They know better. If they do get booted out they will find the person who will take three kids for all of their income.

The ONLY thing that will get them to work this out is if your care is so cheap that they can't replicate it. They need TIME to find out if that is possible. The "we're going to sit down and have a talk" is the words they need to bide the time they need to find another cheap deal that's convienient for them AND gives them the service level you give them. They may have already found the cheap but now searching the cheap and the quality/hours/close to that they are used to.

If you are really cheap, convienient to them, and have all the hours they want you have an in. If you are normal priced, have fixed hours, and are of average in the ways of what they GET you most likely don't. It's as simple as that.

You can tell them that they must see a counsellor to keep services but you can't tell them they must if you are going to keep them whether they do or not.

These guys KNOW there is something wrong with him and hid the truth from you FOR A REASON. It doesn't serve them to tell you the truth or deal with your truth. They are getting special needs care for the price of *** and possibly even a sib discount to boot. Free or near free is GOOD for them. They are going to keep that until they can find it again and they will come up with stall phrases as long as you will accept them and cash the check every week.

Nanny- Love you, but - its not always about the money, not all parents are liars, and most DO care about their childrens' needs, especially for therapy or special needs care, which is USUALLY free, especially for a 5 yo with special needs through most public schools by federal mandate.

[Cat Herder]

Devils advocate here but the DCK's should never have access to your animals.

As my inspector says: "No child shall be in the presence of your pets during daycare hours other than as part of a organized curriculum and restrained. Pets should not be in the living room, hallway or foyer. Please keep them locked in your room indoors or confined at least 500 feet from outdoor play space." (500 feet from the fence line of the playground )

Her decision was based on the fact that DCK's had to be escorted through my living area to exit out the front door at the end of the day. My playroom is dedicated space, with a locking door and no animal is allowed in there. I used to keep my geriatric dog in the hall behind a baby gate so I could peek in on her once she was non-ambulatory at the end of her lifetime. I was told I could not even have a short term exception.

I would be cited for having your DCB in the same room. I could possibly be closed for investigation if it came out that I was not directly supervising DCB AND had a firm hand on my dogs leash in his presence.

I know it is different everywhere, I just want you to know the other side of this spectrum. Good luck, though.

I do understand how you feel. I am NOT a fan of anyone who mistreats animals (FTR: I am not talking about an 18 month old who pokes their eye because they are clumsy and don't know better. This is a 5 year old and purposeful acts!!).

IMHO it shows a flaw in his very core and I would resent having him in my home. Almost every serial killer case study I have ever read starts like this, just saying....

It would be hard to have to care for someone I'd have to struggle to even like. That is just me, though.

Having all your eggs in one basket seems to be coming back to bite you...

[sharlan]

You need to term this boy if his parents do not get him help ASAP. You have the safety of your own children to worry about.

[Lilbutterflie]

Devils advocate here but the DCK's should never have access to your animals.

As my inspector says: "No child shall be in the presence of your pets during daycare hours other than as part of a organized curriculum and restrained. Pets should not be in the living room, hallway or foyer. Please keep them locked in your room indoors or confined at least 500 feet from outdoor play space." (500 feet from the fence line of the playground )

(

I wonder what your licensor would say about the fact that dogs are often used in therapy for children and have been found to sometimes be more therapeutic and healing for them than the therapist? The children LOVE my dog, and he loves them. When they are down or upset, all they have to do is give my dog a big hug and love on him and they feel much better. I've actually thought about getting my dog certified as a therapy dog; because he is THAT good with children and people. It's reasons like this that I have chosen to be a listed provider with the state and not subject to any licensing rules and regulations.

I do see what you are saying. I know that a child like this has to be kept away from animals. I do realize I have a huge liability on my hands. Thinking back on things now; I do wish I had given them a two week notice on Friday instead of giving them a 30 day probation. If there is just one more incident, you'd better bet they'll be handed a two week notice.

[Kaddidle Care]

Hate to be blunt, but I can't mince words on this one. You are doing a disservice to your animals by letting this violent child near them. If you cannot prevent this boy from harming your animals, they will loose trust in you and take matters into their own "hands" and correct him as an animal corrects their young. It will involve pinning, growling and possibly shaking and/or biting. This is a recipe for disaster. You're setting yourself and them up for failure. Let the child go already.

[Live and Learn]

Hate to be blunt, but I can't mince words on this one. You are doing a disservice to your animals by letting this violent child near them. If you cannot prevent this boy from harming your animals, they will loose trust in you and take matters into their own "hands" and correct him as an animal corrects their young. It will involve pinning, growling and possibly shaking and/or biting. This is a recipe for disaster. You're setting yourself and them up for failure. Let the child go already.

Either term the boy or separate the dog!

[PitterPatter]

I really hate to be blunt here but there's no way around it for me. NO ONE would be abusing my dog or any other animal. I care just as deeply for animals as I do children and I would not allow any abuse. Kids have spats but to repeatedly kick and hit and to chase an animal down to cause harm is just awful! I understand it is your entire income. I was in that place for 8 months last year and had to take literally being beaten up almost everyday but, that was me no one else. Had that child been hitting my son or an animal he would be gone and I guess I would have been on welfare.

I think animal abuse is a serious issue. That is how major abuse begins. If that child is not evaluated and treated immediately u will probably see him in the newspaper or on TV and it won't be for accepting an award.

I would advertise right now and fill his spot(s). I hope nothing serious happens to your pets or anyone in the meantime. I wish u luck here and hope u get some calls soon!

[Abigail]

I agree 100% with PitterPatter. If one of my dck hurt one of my cats intentionally they'd be on probation after the second instance and termed on the third. KWIM? Right now my cats ARE my babies. Licensing here allows cats and dogs around the kids, just not during meal prepation and meal times and the yard needs to be cleaned up. I'll never worry about poo in my yard since my cats are indoor only, . I'm such an animal lover and wouldn't let a child or anyone hurt them.

The plus side to terming the child is that you can choose to term the whole family if you don't want to work with the parents anymore or just term the boy and advertise for multiple spots anticipating them giving notice. Honestly, I would advertise to fill all the spots and give the parents a two week notice since you'd be terming all of them......of course after you have signed contracts with new clients. Maybe the rates have gone up as well?!

[nannyde]

Nanny- Love you, but - its not always about the money, not all parents are liars, and most DO care about their childrens' needs, especially for therapy or special needs care, which is USUALLY free, especially for a 5 yo with special needs through most public schools by federal mandate.

Not all parents are liars???????

Oh my.

I've been at this a while and I kinda already knew that.

These parents KNOW this kid has A LOT of problems. When the provider is getting an answer that means absolutely nothing then what is she to think? Saying they are going to talk to the kid is like saying they are going to drive by a bank on the way home. It isn't helping.. it can't help... it means NOTHING so they need to stop saying that. Unless...

they are buying time to get their ducks in line.

If these guys were committed to the kids continuing to get this great care then they would be SICK over this and be meeting with the provider and getting a PLAN. They would get outside help. They would show her with everything they have that they are working on this.

They aren't.

There's GOT to be a reason for that. They have been to this rodeo before. I'm telling ya.

[Unregistered]

these parents know...

...and they have been open with their DCP about that. There is no ICD for OCD in a 5yo (or a 4 yo). Therapy is one thing, addressing behavior in context, at the time, is the way. Is this DCP willing to have the therapist do in setting sessions? That might be part of it. Sitting him down to talk only goes so far. Running him through musical daycare settings sure won't.

No one wants a provider who only keeps their kid when they don't want to because they need the money. If that's really the line, then by all means pass the kid at once! Imagine having a waitress that didn't want to serve you? I think this provider DOES care and wants to help and that this behavior is setting related, and that she CAN help, and that if therapy is needed it will also need to be partially IN the setting.

No question the dog and cat need a respite, though.

[jen2651]

I am not saying we should stand to be abused by our children or dkc, but my nephew went through a (short) phase where he was mean to animals. I mean short, like as in less than a month. That was 5 years ago and he never has shown any inklings that he was going to do it again. He was about the same age as this little boy, and things had just briefly become completely out of control at his house. He was transitioning into seeing his dad (divorced) for the first overnights and truthfully, I think he was just looking for someone to listen to him...we were all, but I think he was feeling out of control and wanted to be in charge of something. He would for example pull on the cats tail. The cat of course would try and scratch and run away. When prompted why he did it, he said he wanted to see what would happen. Well, after a month of reports from his mom (young, recently divorced etc), he came and spent a week at my house. I wasn't doing daycare at the time...he pulled a cats tail (nothing anymore severe than that ever). We again sat down etc etc, and I asked him if he wanted to see what it felt like. I pulled (not jerked, tugged, ripped out etc....maybe I should be posting anon?!) his hair. He looked at me with a shocked look. I told him that was exactly what the cat felt.

We talked about different things he could do to use his hands instead of pulling the cat. We decided at my house he could throw rocks into my pond. So, we would head out to the pond...eventually it became less and less. When he was really upset, he would try and throw rocks that he could hardly lift. It was like he was seeking a response to his actions. Adults weren't giving that to him...our words weren't enough.

I am not saying you should do that (obviously) but I agree with the unregistered poster that mentioned finding something else for his hands to do. It seems boys sometimes have this pent up movement/aggression/yell etc. that they aren't able to get out.

This boy is now almost 10 and truly as empathetic as they come. I have no fear with him around my baby, and animals, or anything else. Whatever his deal was, he has dealt with it and (luckily) has continued to monitor himself is a situation arises (which of course, we would never really know).

But, best of luck, my thoughts go out to you...I would again suggest his parents have him talk to someone especially since it has already been suggested!