Total Change In Behavior - Daycare Can't Cope

[MOM OF 4]

OP,
You answered your own question.

It sounds to me like you feel that your dd is not thriving there, and the provider is not the one for her.

There is no answer but to put in your notice, and find other care.

$$ aside, you have to do what's best for your child, and sometimes, that's the hardest part of being a mother.

Just do it, and get it over with. Then all of this back and forth and trying to decide will be a done deal, and you won't have so many worries on your plate on top of everything else.

And I really would not necessarily go seeking information from other parents. What is the point? You already know what needs to be done.

Just make sure you give proper notice (as there is no abuse going on- a provider's opinion on your child's behavior being abnormal is not a cause for concern), and make sure you're all paid up for what you use/notice period.

[Mom2Two]

For newbies: There is online annual "working with difficult personalities" training for situations like this. Here is a direct quote from our most recent training.

"Here's a short list of the types of people I would lump into the "unreasonable":

*Those you can't have a reasonable conversation with; they somehow twist your words or totally confuse you and then tell you that you're the one who doesn't know how to communicate

*People who make subtly or overtly demeaning comments or say cutting things to you disguised as a "joke"

*Those that don't respect boundaries and seem to enjoy stepping all over one after you've placed it

*The types that aren't willing to consider your point of view or listen to your side of things (or just stare at you blankly, or laugh, or explode, when you try to explain "how you think or feel")

*Bullies

*Verbal or emotional abusers (these can also range from subtle to overt)

*Manipulators

*People who leave you feeling bad, sad, shaky or feeling sick in the pit of your stomach

*"Crazymakers," a.k.a. people who provoke you into acting crazy or unbalanced (and love making you feel like there's something wrong with you when you do), when your behaviour across the rest of your life is proof that you're not

*The excessively charming who are too good to be true and have an ulterior motive

This is awesome. Thank you.

[RIWorkingMom]

It's becoming pretty clear as to where the child gets her need for attention.
If your mother is a psychology major who did her dissertation on child development for her Master's degree why aren't you going to her with all of this? Wouldn't she be the best resource for normal or abnormal?

Because I figured I would go to providers to see what they recommend based off of experience...

It's becoming pretty clear as to where the child gets her need for attention.
If your mother is a psychology major who did her dissertation on child development for her Master's degree why aren't you going to her with all of this? Wouldn't she be the best resource for normal or abnormal?

[RIWorkingMom]

I think you're doing the right thing.

It was me who said that about behavioral issues. Because I have an associates in early childhood development, and a bachelors in early childhood education, and am currently in a masters program, have over 17 years of child care experience, and over 6 years as a licensed provider, I have a good grasp on what IS atypical behavior.

I wasn't saying your daughter had abnormal behaviors, just that what a PARENT- with more limited child care education and experience sees as normal, and what an educated, experienced provider KNOW are normal behaviors can be very different.

Typical temper tantrums are VERY normal, but I have had parents say that their child has typical temper tantrums, and what I witnessed was a two hour long self harming NOT typical 'temper tantrum'.

She said the longest they have lasted have been twenty minutes. I asked her what she did when dd was throwing a tantrum. She said she tried to pick her up, and talk to her, or she had tried to hold her. I recommended that she put her in the port-a-crib (yes my dd still has one there. She cannot upgrade to a cot until she is 2) and calmly walk away and come back when she calms down. That when she is worked up and she is getting crowded (this is also when she tends to swat at people) This went from 20 minute fits to 2 minute fits if that often shorter. The only time she whines (and not throws a big fit but sniffles and does the deep inhale) for a long time is when she is put down for her morning nap, and that is for 1 1/2 hours. They have 2 2 hour naps a day. My dd comes a little later than the rest of the kids so it is only 1 1/2 hrs for her. This is why I personally believe they are normal tantrums. She did react well to the new method. The tantrums are completely predictable and avoidable. Giving her advance notice before an activity ends, giving ultimatums, and not crowding her or giving her attention when she doesn't know how to cope with her emotions. Oh and the self harming bit.... We just learned that she was getting her two year old molars and that is why she was "biting herself"

And you are right about your qualifications providing you more insight. My dcp was previously a dental hygienist who is brand new at this and only had to take 24 hours worth of courses. I am not discounting her experience, but I will say that I do value yours more. I wish you knew me because you would know I am particularly harsh on what is normal and what is not normal and that is how we caught my son's issue early on and how he succeeded. I pretty much did the same thing. Brought him for an eval, and they were like woah yup time for a psych eval. Cognitively at 3 he scored at the level of a 9 year old, but socially he was beneath an 18 month old. I have seen abnormal behavior. This is not it. This is just a kid who listens to mom but not the provider and is ready for a change.

[daycarediva]

Oh I know it is not, but the daycare has told me that she has never seen this with any kid ever. That she called her teacher, and other providers, her sister, her mother and they have never ever had a kid that has tantrums. I find that hard to believe because they literally coined a phrase for them... terrible twos. She also said this to other parents before me. I agree it is no longer the right fit and I am getting her out of there. I am listening guys. I do agree with you. I just don't want to cause anyone any undue heartbreak.. my daughter... the dc provider. anyone.. After yesterdays talk, I don't think she is going to be happy to see my dd leave, but I can't keep hearing that my daughter is not normal

I think you're doing the right thing.

It was me who said that about behavioral issues. Because I have an associates in early childhood development, and a bachelors in early childhood education, and am currently in a masters program, have over 17 years of child care experience, and over 6 years as a licensed provider, I have a good grasp on what IS atypical behavior.

I wasn't saying your daughter had abnormal behaviors, just that what a PARENT- with more limited child care education and experience sees as normal, and what an educated, experienced provider KNOW are normal behaviors can be very different.

Typical temper tantrums are VERY normal, but I have had parents say that their child has typical temper tantrums, and what I witnessed was a two hour long self harming NOT typical 'temper tantrum'.

[RIWorkingMom]

Has this provider never had 2-4 yos before?? Temper tantrums are not fun but they're pretty common as children progress from being a totally dependent infant to a little being who realizes what they do can reap attention, benefits, choices, etc. It's called a mind of one's own. And nearing the 2's they realize they have one, they're just not sure how to use it yet.

They don't stay. There is only one girl left that is in that age group. Everyone else has left. They were told their kids behavior isn't normal. That's why I agree with a few of the posters here. Maybe she is better suited for infant care, and not toddler care.

[Josiegirl]

Has this provider never had 2-4 yos before?? Temper tantrums are not fun but they're pretty common as children progress from being a totally dependent infant to a little being who realizes what they do can reap attention, benefits, choices, etc. It's called a mind of one's own. And nearing the 2's they realize they have one, they're just not sure how to use it yet.

[RIWorkingMom]

It sounds like this is (atypical) not normal behavior FOR YOUR DAUGHTER.

Oh I know it is not, but the daycare has told me that she has never seen this with any kid ever. That she called her teacher, and other providers, her sister, her mother and they have never ever had a kid that has tantrums. I find that hard to believe because they literally coined a phrase for them... terrible twos. She also said this to other parents before me. I agree it is no longer the right fit and I am getting her out of there. I am listening guys. I do agree with you. I just don't want to cause anyone any undue heartbreak.. my daughter... the dc provider. anyone.. After yesterdays talk, I don't think she is going to be happy to see my dd leave, but I can't keep hearing that my daughter is not normal

[Josiegirl]

Providers do get attached to their kiddos and hate to see them move on, BUT don't let it be a deterrent as to your decision. Just be honest and use a very common line that providers use.....'I'm sorry but I don't believe your program fits my child's needs any longer'.

I wish you the best. I truly do. Change comes into everyone's lives but it's so hard to help little ones who go through it. They can act out in a myriad of ways. One of my dcgs' family brought a new baby into the mix and dad moved out when the baby was a week old. Dcg went through so much emotional turmoil and misbehavior for a few months. It was so sad to see and she was so frustrating to work with but dcps are now reconnecting and dcg is 6 months older, doing much better! While it may not be a normal reaction to a horrible(especially through the eyes of a child)situation change, it certainly was not unexpected.

I kind of find the term 'normal' to be irrelevant. Not one child is like another. So wth IS normal anyways??

[daycarediva]

Op- I didn't see a single person blaming your daughter.

As a less experienced provider, you really have NO IDEA how hard it is for a provider to discuss behavioral challenges with a parent. It sounds like this is (atypical) not normal behavior FOR YOUR DAUGHTER.

I agree with Black cat.

I would also ask provider if she can get together for a conference after hours, and go over what you're doing at home, what you're willing to do, what the doctor said (and bring documentation, if necessary). Ask provider what's going on at DC, and what she's willing/capable of doing to assist your daughter. TELL her you're working with her, but ask if it's beyond manageable. It's ok to part ways if it's in your child's best interest.

MANY providers (that would charge similar rates) operate a more structured program with similarly aged kids (eg I run 18m-5 years but I only take one under 2, so my kids that start at 18m ARE the baby here (and treated like it!), for a good 6 months). It gives them a wonderful opportunity to learn from the bigger kids, and my big kids learn patience and kindness towards their younger classmate.

[RIWorkingMom]

When posters said your DD may not be thriving in a mixed age group or wasn't a good fit for group care was in NO WAY blaming the child.

That's like saying your DD doesn't like yellow and blaming the crayon. When something isn't a good fit, it's not HER fault. I don't think anyone said that.

This is what made me feel that way:

some behaviors that parents describe as normal are NOT normal.

I've seen autism, SPD/SID, ADHD, ODD, and learning disabilities WELL before a parent has.

That felt to me to like the child is being blamed for not being normal or having a mental disorder. I went back and reread all of the comments. This one just stuck out in my head I guess as I felt it was harsh. I felt that this statement sounds like my word as a parent cannot be trusted or taken into consideration, and that this problem is most likely with the child. I could be reading too deeply in that, but it definitely stuck out. The comments about needing to change daycare because it might not be a right fit does not sound like anyone is blaming anyone else. I am sorry if you felt that was what I was getting at. I was hoping to keep my daughter in the same daycare because as you can see change is tough for her, but if it's not right then it is not right. I am taking your advice on moving her. I agree with you all and I am not blaming anyone for her. Reaching out to the other parents to see where they went was probably both a mistake and a blessing. I think it opened our eyes to the fact that she is probably best with infants and not toddlers, but the one parent (and only one parent) that mentioned the pow pow’s could be lying.

I agree there are better ways for the provider to say your child is not normal but there are also better ways to communicate with each other in general.

I'm trying. That's why I posted here. I usually let her talk. Ask what I can do. Offer some tips that worked with my dd when she is with me. It is hard to change her behavior when I am not there. She is not the same person at dc as she is at home, and I know this is typical. But all provider says is that she doesn't know what to do. That's why I offered to make a doctor's appointment to see if I can get a referral for a therapist. All I was told from the doctor was that her behavior is normal and very typical for this situation, and that she did not need therapy and that I am doing a good job. Like I said the dr witnessed a meltdown, saw how I handled it, and that it didn't last for more than 30 seconds. I know that she is going to act differently with me than with a dc provider. I know that. I also know that she spends a lot of time with the provider and that children tend to emote more around primary caregivers. Asking for the DR report felt like she didn’t believe me.

As the parent, ask the provider to elaborate on what she means by "not normal".

She said that the hitting when she is in the corner and going limp and crying when she goes in the corner, and biting herself (by the way, just found out her two year old molars are coming in and by biting herself she means that she is biting her fingers. She has been sticking almost her whole hand in there and biting them), not sharing well, crying when they have to stop playing and crying when I drop her off is not normal. Mind you she didn’t have these problems before the new babies. I believe that this is normal behavior all things considered. I do not believe it is acceptable behavior, but it is definitely normal.
Also, note my earlier comment that she gave her an ultimatum and that worked well. What sets her off is very predictable, so by saying if you cry when we go in for snack you can’t come out and play worked better than the corner!

What I say and what a parent hears aren't always the same thing (your example illustrates that perfectly) so discussing something, asking for clarification, tips, tricks, ideas and resources is not only the providers responsibility but your's as well.

She hasn't offered anything as far as tips or tricks or what she needs from me. I have been going mad doing research. Hence the dr visit and reaching out to people who have most likely dealt with this.

As for the 2 naps a day, your DD is a bit old to still be taking 2 naps a day but depending on how ling her day in care is, how restful her night time sleep is and other factors, she might need two naps but that is something I would definitely be discussing with the provider.

This is the toughest one and probably the biggest reason I need to change her daycare. I have told her that I hear two is when most kids phase out of the 2 naps. I told her that maybe my dd doesn’t need it anymore. If she has to have all of the kids on a two nap schedule this won't work for DD. This is also one of the things she said wasn't normal. Ya know the fact that she wont take her morning nap anymore, and that she whines the entire time. I tried explaining to her that she simply outgrew it. She is almost 2. She goes to bed at 7:30 PM and wakes up at 6:30 AM. She is not going to go down for a nap at 7:30 AM. I spoke to my mom about this and she was the one that told me that she may feel like she is being punished by being forced to lay down and not make a noise when she has just woken up and is full of energy.


Also, My mom, who majored in psych and did her dissertation on child development, also states that her tantrums are on par with her age and the new baby situation.

I also want to throw in there that the dc provider has often said I am one of her favorite parent. I am always willing to work with her. I always know when to drop of diapers and wipes, and I always pay on time. SO... I just want you all to know that I am trying to be proactive, but I really haven't addressed that the whole not normal thing bothering me. Can I tell her that it bothers me? Do you think that it is worth it or should I just shut my mouth? I have an appt on Friday for a pre-k who said they have had many kids like my dd who are going through the terrible twos and have problems adapting and are prepared to work with her, and have a counselor on staff. My MIL can watch her two days, so I can put her in part time and actually save $$! They have an opening in 3 weeks. How do I break the news to the dc without breaking her heart?

[Cat Herder]

The fact that some of you are so quick to blame the child breaks my heart.

Wow. You are gifted with the deflect, minimize, reverse and project. Luckily I can smell it like antibiotic poo in the diaper of a kid hiding in the block center. You asked for our opinions. Take it, leave it, but don't be an askhole.

With that, I am done with your thread. I sincerely want things to get better for your daughter. Good luck.

For newbies: There is online annual "working with difficult personalities" training for situations like this. Here is a direct quote from our most recent training.

"Here's a short list of the types of people I would lump into the "unreasonable":

*Those you can't have a reasonable conversation with; they somehow twist your words or totally confuse you and then tell you that you're the one who doesn't know how to communicate

*People who make subtly or overtly demeaning comments or say cutting things to you disguised as a "joke"

*Those that don't respect boundaries and seem to enjoy stepping all over one after you've placed it

*The types that aren't willing to consider your point of view or listen to your side of things (or just stare at you blankly, or laugh, or explode, when you try to explain "how you think or feel")

*Bullies

*Verbal or emotional abusers (these can also range from subtle to overt)

*Manipulators

*People who leave you feeling bad, sad, shaky or feeling sick in the pit of your stomach

*"Crazymakers," a.k.a. people who provoke you into acting crazy or unbalanced (and love making you feel like there's something wrong with you when you do), when your behaviour across the rest of your life is proof that you're not

*The excessively charming who are too good to be true and have an ulterior motive

[Blackcat31]

The fact that some of you are so quick to blame the child breaks my heart. I know there are some tough kids out there, but there are also some kids who have a tough time with change.

When posters said your DD may not be thriving in a mixed age group or wasn't a good fit for group care was in NO WAY blaming the child.

That's like saying your DD doesn't like yellow and blaming the crayon. When something isn't a good fit, it's not HER fault. I don't think anyone said that.

I am still looking into a pre-k environment. My dd is smart. She knows her abcs, colors, shapes and counts to 10. She also sings countless other songs, and is great with completing puzzles beyond her age bracket. I want to keep her in an environment where she can flourish.

This is a perfect example of the difference in perspective for parent and provider.

As a parent, the things you listed in support of "being smart" aren't at all the things I view as important.

Group care requires children to be able to have patience, ability to thrive in with mixed aged peers, have manners, not be physically aggressive, social-emotional growth-maturity, can communicate needs, can follow instructions, stay on task, be willing to participate and/or observe new activities etc....

Those things are what make a child independent and mature. Knowing ABC's and 1,2,3's are important but she'll learn those things in school later in life.... the things I listed are the things I work on with children and what I measure a child's successful developmental progress according to.

I have a 2.5 yr old in care that knows all her ABC's and 1,2,3's in both Spanish and English as well as many other memorized academics but the same child is lacking in independence and social emotional development and that is what will cause the most issues in life. Until those skills are mastered, the academics don't matter much.

So again, thank you. Maybe the dc is great with babies, but not ready for toddlers. However, there are better ways to talk to parents than saying your kid is not normal.

I agree there are better ways for the provider to say your child is not normal but there are also better ways to communicate with each other in general.

As the parent, ask the provider to elaborate on what she means by "not normal".

Not normal in general or not normal in this providers experience or not normal for your DD. There are several meanings that could have been her intent. If you are unsure and want to work with her (provider) ask, talk, communicate! Open honest communication is THE key to a successful working relationship between parent and provider.

What I say and what a parent hears aren't always the same thing (your example illustrates that perfectly) so discussing something, asking for clarification, tips, tricks, ideas and resources is not only the providers responsibility but your's as well.

As for the 2 naps a day, your DD is a bit old to still be taking 2 naps a day but depending on how ling her day in care is, how restful her night time sleep is and other factors, she might need two naps but that is something I would definitely be discussing with the provider.

Providing child care is a learning experience for everyone. Even the provider. So communication as we go along on this journey is SOOOO important. It's the best way to ensure that your child's needs are being met!

[hwichlaz]

It sounds normal to me, if your descritpion is accurate. Whether your child should be in group care or not isnt' for me to say...but she shouldn't be with THIS provider. I've done this for nearly 18 years now....and I'd just be sticking her in a pack-n-play until she calmed down every time. I wouldn't call it a punishment at all, just a safe place to calm down. Pick her up, without emotion, calmly place her in the crib, walk away and don't look back until I can tell she's starting to calm down a bit. Then once I knew she'd hear what I was saying I'd tell her.....I'll come get you when you're done.